HL Deb 02 July 1907 vol 177 cc487-94

House in Committee (according to Order).

[The Earl of ONSLOW in the Chair.]

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2: —

The Earl of CAMPERDOWN

had Amendments on the Paper to insert the word "provisional" before the word "Order" in three places in this clause and in several places in subsequent clauses. He explained that these were merely drafting Amendments, but were for the purpose of securing the uniform use of the phrase "provisional order." As the clause now stood, the term "provisional order" was used in one or two instances, and the word "order" in others. It was desirable that there should be no doubt what was meant, and he hoped his noble friend in charge of the Bill would have no objection to inserting the word "provisional." He begged to move the first Amendment standing in his name.

Amendment moved—

In page 2, line 2, after the second 'the' to insert the word 'provisional.' "—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD of AGRICULTURE and FISHERIES (Earl CARRINGTON)

said the general principle adopted by the draftsman had been to use the expression "provisional order" once in each clause and sub-clause, and to subsequently refer to it as the "order." The insertion of the word "provisional" in the place now proposed was unnecessary. He was afraid, therefore, he could not accept the Amendment.

The Earl OF CAMPERDOWN

asked the noble Earl to give his reason for not accepting the first Amendment.

Earl CARRINGTON

repeated that the general principle adopted by the draftsman had been to use the expression "provisional order" once in each clause or sub-clause and to subsequently refer to it as the "order." To call it a provisional order in every case would require about a dozen Amendments beyond those on the Paper. The Amendments were purely drafting, and, if adopted, would not in any way affect the Bill. He appealed to the noble Earl, in these circumstances, not to press his Amendment. The Government were perfectly willing to agree to the insertion of the word "provisional" in two cases later.

The Earl OF CAMPERDOWN

said the argument the noble Earl had used was a good one for rejecting the word "provisional" in every case where he proposed to insert it. Why in two particular cases he was willing to accept the Amendment and not in others he could not understand.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of Onslow)

thought Lord Carrington's point was quite clear. Clause 2 commenced with the words," Any such provisional order," and the noble Earl's contention was that the word "order" wherever used again in that clause necessarily meant the provisional order.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

did not press the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

EARL CARRINGTON

said his first Amendment was intended to enable the Board to deal with such cases as the abolition of netting in narrow water, which might be desirable in the general interests of the river but might seriously injure particular fishing. In the absence of some power to secure the payment of compensation difficulty might arise in staving off objection to an order on this ground. It was not intended in any way that the powers should be exercised in such a manner as to encourage claims for compensation by every person who felt aggrieved by the means taken to improve the river generally.

Amendment moved— In page 3, line 7, after the word 'pro visions,' to insert the words' including pro visions for payment of compensation to persons injuriously affected by the order.' "— (Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF DENBIGH

moved to insert a new subsection, which, he said, had been drafted for the purpose of meeting a grievance felt by owners of fishery establishments. He understood that the noble Earl in charge of the Bill would accept the Amendment.

Amendment moved— In page 3, line 23, after the word ' advertisement ' to insert as a new subsection: '(4) An order under this Act shall not apply to any waters in which the business of artificially propagating or rearing salmon or trout is carried on under a licence granted by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, and any such licence may be granted by the Board, subject to such conditions (if any) as they think fit, and may be revoked if the Board are of opinion that any condition has not been observed.' "— (The Earl of Denbigh.)

EARL CARRINGTON

said it had been pointed out that to include fish farms in a district and to subject them to assessment would be likely seriously to hamper this industry. Fish farms, moreover, would not derive material benefit from the conservancy of the river. He thought the Amendment ought to be accepted, as it only referred to farms that were bond fide and carried on under proper conditions.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3: —

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

said he supposed the noble Earl would accept the Amendment to insert the word "provisional" in this case, as the word "order" was here the second word of the clause.

Amendment moved—

In page 3, line 24, to leave out the word 'An,' and to insert the words 'A provisional.' " —(The Earl of Camperdown.)

EARL CARRINGTON

accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD NEWTON

moved to substitute "one-fourth" for "one-tenth." The clause as proposed to be amended would read— An order under this Act shall not be made except on the application of a board of conservators constituted under the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Acts, or of a county council, or of persons who, in the opinion of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, are the owners of 'one-fourth' at least in value of the private fisheries proposed to be regulated or constitute a majority of the persons holding licences to fish in public waters within the area of the proposed order. … He explained that he had put down this Amendment because it had been represented to him that one-tenth was much too small a proportion to bring into effect the rather complicated machinery of this Bill. It appeared to him rather unreasonable that it should be within the power of, perhaps, one individual to put persons to considerable trouble and expense; and he suggested, therefore, that the proportion of one-tenth should be altered to one-fourth.

Amendment moved—

"In page 3, line 28, to leave out the word ' one-tenth ' and to insert the word ' one-fourth.' "—(Lord Newton.)

EARL CARRINGTON:

said he was quite prepared to accept the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL CARRINGTON

moved to amend the provision— Every such application shall be advertised in such manner as the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries direct "— by inserting, after the word "advertised," the words "by the applicants."

The provision as it stood was, he said, ambiguous as to the party responsible for advertising the application, and the Amendment was intended to remedy this. They wanted to make it quite clear by whom the advertisement was to be made.

Amendment moved— In page 3, line 32, after the word 'advertised' to insert the words ' by the applicants.' " — (Earl Carrington.)

On Question. Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4: —

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

again moved to insert the word "provisional," and said that to be consistent the noble Earl must accept the Amendment in this case.

Amendment moved— In page 3, line 30, to leave out the word ' an,' and to insert the words 'a provisional.' " — (The Earl of Camperdown.)

EARL CARRINGTON

accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

then moved to insert the words "terms of the draft" before the Word "order" in the last line of Subsection 2, which, as amended, would read— The Board may, if they think it expedient, hold a local inquiry by an inspector or other officer of the Board with respect to any objections made to the draft order, and shall, after considering all such objections and the report of the officer who held the inquiry (if any) thereon, settle the ' terms of the draft' order. The term "settle the order," at present in the subsection, was not one which had often been used in drafting. He thought it appeared in one of the Land Bills this year, but, as far as he could make out, the term might be taken, in the absence of some explanation, to mean that the Board would have the power to settle the order itself, especially with reference to the provision in the next clause that the Board might submit the order to Parliament for confirmation. He sup posed that the meaning was that the Board of Agriculture should settle the terms of the draft order, and it was better to make that plain by inserting the words in his Amendment.

Amendment moved— In page 4. line 12, after the second ' the,' to insert the words 'terms of the draft.' "—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

EARL CARRINGTON

said the Government considered the Amendment an improvement of the clause and gladly accepted it.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5: —

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

moved to provide that, if while the confirming Bill is pending in either House, a petition is presented against any order comprised therein, the Bill, so far as it relates to that order, "shall" be referred to a Select Committee, and not "may," as provided in the clause. Under the clause as it stood there was no obligation to refer to a Select Committee. Surely the petitioner ought to have the right to have his case heard, and to secure this it was essential that the word "may" should be altered to "shall."

Amendment moved— In page 4, line 20, to leave out the word 'may' and insert the word 'shall.' "—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

EARL CARRINGTON

could not accept the Amendment because the Standing Orders of the two Houses made the necessary provision for dealing with opposed Provisional Orders by referring them to Committees. Therefore the Amendment was unnecessary. There was another objection- namely, that by accepting the Amendment they would be departing from the model form. In the circumstances he hoped the noble Earl would not press the Amendment.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

said the argument of the noble Earl appeared to be that the Amendment was unnecessary, because the Standing Orders of both Houses stated that where a petition was presented the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee. If that was provided for by the Standing Orders, what possible objection could there be to the Bill also stating that there should be a reference to a Committee? If the word "may" were left in, a doubt would be created which was only removed by the application of the Standing Orders of Parliament to the clause. The noble Earl had said that whether "may" did or did not stand part of the clause the result was the same. If that was so, it was better to use wording about which there could be no mistake. His noble friend had followed this course in several Amendments in the Agricultural Holdings Act of last year, and he was afraid that as a result he (Lord Camperdown) would have to trouble the House a little later by showing what a mistake had been committed through not pointing out clearly what was intended. It was much better to state what was meant, and he would, therefore, press the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6: —

EARL CARRINGTON

moved to omit Subsection (1), which provided that the expenses incurred by the Board of Agriculture in respect of any order should be paid by the applicants for the order. He said that this provision might bear hardly on small fisheries boards, whose funds were rather limited. He moved this Amendment as the result of the objection that was taken to the subsection on the Second Reading of the Bill by the Earl of Harewood.

Amendment moved— In page 4, lines 30 to 36, to leave out Subsection (1)." — (Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 7: —

EARL CARRINGTON

said the object of his Amendment to this clause was to make it quite clear that, though the Crown was not, without consent, to be bound in any way by the Bill, it would be possible, with a proper consent given on behalf of the Crown or the Duchy affected, to include the Crown or Duchy fisheries within the scope of any order made under the Bill.

Amendment moved— In page 5, line 8, after the word 'Act' to insert the words ' or any fishery proposed to be affected by any such order.' "— (Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Consequential Amendments agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8: —

Earl CARRINGTON

moved the insertion of the words "in Dumfriesshire" to remove any ambiguity as to which Esk was referred to, there being more than one river of that name.

Amendment moved— In page 5, line 36, after the word ' Esk ' to insert the words ' in Dumfriesshire.' "— (Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Bill reported with Amendments to the House.

Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee; and to be printed as amended. (No. 90.)