STRENGTH OF THE ARTILLERY. (Hansard, 1 July 1907)

§ VISCOUNT MIDLETON
My Lords, I rise to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War— (1) What is intended to be the future establishment of the Horse and Field Artillery; (2) Whether the number of Regulars, Artillery, and horses voted in the Estimates for 1907–1908 represent a decrease of 988 men and 1,024 horses since 1904–1905, when 20,303 men and 10,704 horses Were voted; and whether any further decrease of regular artillerymen is in contemplation.
I venture to trouble the noble Earl with these Questions as the matter was left in some little doubt after the debate last Wednesday. We were originally told by the Secretary of State for the Colonies that there would be no reduction whatever in the strength of the Artillery, which was quite inadequate to the needs of the Expeditionary Force. Subsequently, however, the noble Earl the Lord President, in reply to a question, said there undoubtedly would be a reduction in the Regulars, although he considered that the strength of the Expeditionary Force would not suffer by that reduction. There was a very material difference, as it appeared to us on this side of the House, between the two statements, and I venture to ask the noble Earl to give us figures which will enable us to form a judgment ourselves.

§ THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Earl of PORTSMOUTH)
My Lords, I have to say, in reply to the first Question, that, as the future establishment is still under consideration and not finally decided, I regret I cannot give the noble Lord any definite Answer. As regards the second Question, the noble Lord's figures are correct comparing 1904–5 with 1907–8. The decrease between 1904–5 and 1907–8 has been a question of gradual and not sudden decrease. The establishment of Royal Horse and Field Artillery, exclusive of India, as in the Army Estimates, is as follows: —1904–5—all ranks, 20,303, horses, 10,704; 1905–6—all ranks, 20,088, horses, 10,476; 1906–7—all ranks, 20,095, horses, 10,311; 1907–8— all ranks, 19,315, horses, 9,680. In 316 1905–6 one field battery was reduced on withdrawal from Egypt. In 1907–8, six field batteries were withdrawn from the Colonies and placed in the lower establishment. One horse and three field depots were reduced. The total establishment, including India, has been in 1907–8 increased on account of the formation of additional ammunition columns. As I have already said, the question of the future establishment of the Royal Horse and Field Artillery is now receiving the careful consideration of the Army Council, and we hope to be in a position to deal with any changes in the establishment of the Royal Artillery when Estimates are presented next year. I may observe that we have at no time proposed, or even suggested, the reduction of the total number of men available for Horse or Field Artillery. On the contrary, we have pointed out that there does exist at present a serious deficiency in the numbers required for the mobilisation of this arm. What has been proposed is largely to increase the total number of men available by getting on a Militia basis as many for the ammunition columns as can safely be used for that purpose. As a means to this end we have proposed in the case of the Field Artillery to substitute for a certain proportion of Regulars a much larger number of special contingent men.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
How many?

§ THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH
I am afraid I cannot give the figures, but, as I have said, a much larger number.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
I confess that it is with some surprise that we have heard the Answer which has just been given by the noble Earl, who tells us that on all the essential features of this Question the matter is still under consideration. I should like to ask the Government how they reconcile the statement of the Secretary of State for the Colonies with the Answer of the Under-Secretary for War. It is very difficult for us to discuss the Territorial Army Bill if we cannot get definite information on this matter from His Majesty's Government.

§ THE EARL OF ELGIN
My Lords, what I understood, and what I believe my statement the other night carried out, was that, with the present establishment of men of the Royal Artillery, the Secretary of State found himself unable to man the full number of guns which he was advised was desirable for the new Expeditionary Force. Under these circumstances, he proposed to establish a system by which he brought in men on a Militia basis for the ammunition columns of a certain number of guns, and he distributed thereby the Royal Artillerymen over a larger number of batteries. If, by an arrangement of that kind, my right hon. friend is able to have ready at the moment when the Expeditionary Force is called upon the full number of batteries which military opinion thinks is required for that force, and is also able during the time anterior to mobilisation to maintain in various centres throughout the Kingdom batteries with a sufficient number of regular artillerymen to carry on the purposes of training, then I think the statement I made on behalf of His Majesty's Government the other night, that the strength of the artillery as a whole was maintained, was justified. The figures now given by my noble friend the Under-Secretary show, no doubt, that a certain number of the Royal Artillery have, as the strength stood before, been reduced over a period of years.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
And will be further reduced.

§ THE EARL OF ELGIN
My noble friend was unable to give the figures of the future establishment, but as soon as that is fairly worked out I am sure they will be given to noble Lords opposite.

§ *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE
My Lords, the explanation to which we have just listened is not one which we can regard as entirely satisfactory. Those of us who heard the speech of the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies the other evening certainly understood that there was to be no reduction in the strength of the Horse and Field Artillery. The obvious meaning of those words to us was that there was 318 to be no reduction in the strength of the Regular artillery.

§ THE EARL OF ELGIN
In the personnel.

§ *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE
I do not in the least suggest that the noble Earl intentionally misled us—he is incapable of doing that—but a false impression was created. What we now gather is that a gradual reduction is, in fact, proceeding, and is likely to go on, although the noble Earl the Undersecretary is not yet able to tell us exactly to what extent. These Regular artillerymen who are going to be diminished in number are to be replaced for certain purposes by men taken from the special contingent. They may be very valuable men, but they are not, and they cannot be, as valuable as Regular artillerymen. I have, in former days, very often taken part in discussions with the military advisers of the Government on this question of the strength of the artillery, and I always understood them to insist on two things. One was that we should have a certain proportion of guns of the Regular artillery to the number of 1,000 men whom we intended to employ in the field. That gave us one number up to which it was desirable to work. In addition to that, I was always told that it was desirable to have a sufficient number of Regular artillerymen in order to stiffen the Auxiliary Forces. As I understand the proposal of His Majesty's Government, it will be just as necessary as ever it has been to give the Territorial Army a proper stiffening of Regular artillery. The statement of the noble Earl is one which I regard as somewhat disquieting, and I do wish that, before this discussion closes, we could be told positively that no Regulars are likely to be reduced until these newly-created men of the special contingent really become available to take their place. It would be a matter of great regret if there were to be a sort of hiatus during which the Regular artillery would be gradually and steadily reduced before a sufficient number of men even of the Special Contingent were ready to take their place.

§ THE MARQUESS OF RIPON
My Lords, I do not think my noble friend has any 319 ground for charging my noble friend behind me—and I do not think he did—with making an inaccurate statement on the former occasion. It is evident from the figures which have been given by my noble friend the Under-Secretary that there has been a slight reduction in the last few years in the strength of the Royal Artillery, beginning at a period before the present Government came into office. There is no doubt that the guns intended to be used by the Expeditionary Force were inadequately provided with ammunition columns; and the proposal of the Secretary of State is to meet this deficiency. The Army Council believe that the men trained on a Militia basis will be perfectly efficient for these duties; and we may therefore say that there will be no reduction, but an increase in the general efficiency of the artillery. With respect to the last point raised by the noble Marquess Lord Lansdowne, if a further Question is put to-morrow no doubt my noble friend will be able to answer it.