§ Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
§ LORD ALLENDALEMy Lords, I am glad to think—and I am sure your Lordships will all be very much relieved to hear—that this formidable-looking Bill of 95 clauses—formidable, I think, at any time of the session, but especially when introduced into this House at this period of the session—will not necessitate any long introduction from me. I must, indeed, frankly admit that I should not be capable of giving it even if it were necessary for me to do so. It is a Bill which I think has been agreed upon substantially, and I have no doubt that Lord Onslow will be able to explain to your Lordships a little more about it than I can.
From time to time, as your Lordships are aware, particular local authorities bring in Bills for local Acts containing various provisions as to sanitary and police matters. These provisions are carefully considered by a Special Committee of the House of Commons, called the Police and Sanitary Committee, and also by the Chairman of Committees in the House of Lords. The consequence is that there are a number of clauses the provisions of which are seldom or never refused by Parliament when local authorities apply for them. The Police and Sanitary Committee have on several occasions in recent years referred in their Reports to the desirability of including in a Public Act many of the provisions which are so frequently introduced into Bills for local Acts and accepted by Parliament. Some of the clauses in this Bill are adoptive, and arrangements can be made under which they, or such of them as are needed in a particular district, can be put in force. The local authority will be able to obtain the benefit of those clauses of this Bill which will apply to their particular locality without being obliged to promote a Bill in Parliament at considerable expense. I believe the Lord Chairman agrees to the expediency of this being done, and it will be remembered by your Lordships that on the 7th March last my 278 noble friend Lord Onslow called attention to the large number of local Acts which were passed in recent sessions for private Bills introduced for conferring sanitary powers upon particular authorities, and that he asked whether the time had not arrived for the extension of the Public Acts. In reply my noble friend Lord Carrington expressed sympathy on behalf of the Government with the object of the present Bill.
It may be mentioned that a somewhat similar Bill to this was passed in the year 1893, amending an Act of the same character of 1875. This has proved of very much service, and up to the end of last year I may say that 965 urban and 360 rural authorities had adopted the whole or portions of the Act. The present Bill was introduced into the House of Commons by Mr. Wilson, who at present occupies the position of Chairman of the Police and Sanitary Committee, which at one time, as your Lordships know, was occupied, to the great advantage of the public, by Lord Fitzmaurice. This Bill has undergone considerable revision in Standing Committee in another place, and all clauses likely to be controversial have been eliminated, while various necessary alterations were made in other clauses at the instance of the Local Government Board and of the Secretary of State. The Bill was supported by the Government in the House of Commons, although it was a Private Member's Bill, and it was starred by the Government at the Report stage, as they think it very important that the Bill should be passed this session, and if it had not been starred, as your Lordships are aware, there would have been no chance of its being made law this session.
The Bill is divided into ten parts, which deal with such matters as streets and buildings, sanitary provisions; infectious diseases, common lodging houses, recreation grounds, police, fire brigades, sky signs and hoardings, and other miscellaneous subjects. As I say, care has been taken to eliminate any clauses that might have led to controversy. Clause 3, which is rather an important clause, provides that on the application of the local authority the Local Government Board, or, as regards police clauses, the Secretary of State, may declare any 279 section to be in force in a particular district, and that, as I have said before, will obviate the necessity and the great expense of local authorities coming to Parliament for special Bills.
It appears to be unnecessary to go further into the provisions of the Bill, even if there were time to do so. As I say, I believe it contains no novel or controversial proposals, and the Government cordially hope that it will be passed this session. I see that Lord Onslow has put down a notice that in the event of the Bill being read a second time by the House it be referred to a Select Committee. The Government, on the understanding that such Committee would meet forthwith and examine the Bill with a view to see that it answers its purpose—the purpose which I have described generally to your Lordships—and also on the understanding that the passing of the measure would not be endangered, would be prepared to assent to that course. But of course it must be realised that if any serious objection is taken to the Bill, or any substantial alteration made, it will be quite impossible for the Bill to become law this session.
§ Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(Lord Allendale.)
THE Earl of ONSLOWThe noble Lord has very truly said that when I inquired whether His Majesty's Government would be disposed to accept a Bill amending the Public Health Act I was received with much sympathy by the President of the Board of Agriculture, but was afforded very little hope that anything would be done. However, by the enterprise of the gentleman referred to in the other House of Parliament who prepared this Bill, the Bill has now been laid upon the Table of your Lordships' House. I regret that some clauses, at any rate, which the noble Lord described as being possibly contentious have been struck out of the Bill, because I think many of them would have been of considerable value. However, I welcome the Bill as far as it goes, and I am glad that its Second Reading has been moved, not by a private Member of your Lordships'" House, but by the noble Lord who represents the Local Government Board. The reason I shall presently ask your Lordships to send the Bill to a small 280 Select Committee is that in the course of its passage in another place it has been materially altered in many points of drafting. It was originally intended to represent the clauses which are usually introduced into private Bills as revised by the Police and Sanitary Committee in another place, and by my Department in your Lordships' House, but it bears now upon it the stamp of the drafting of the Local Government Board, and I think that before your Lordships pass it into law it is very desirable that the Bill should be carefully examined—not upon any material points of policy or of procedure, but mainly to see that it falls in line with the various local Acts which have been passed in different parts of England. I think that a Bill of this kind is desirable every few years, and I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will give it a Second Reading. I also hope that you will accede to the Motion which I shall presently make, in regard to which I will undertake that it will be a very short time before the Bill is returned to your Lordships' House. The acceptance of my Motion will save your Lordships' time, because the matters with which the Bills deals will be fully discussed in Committee, and your Lordships will then have an opportunity of considering the Report of the Committee, and furthermore the referring of it to a Committee will in no way interfere with any noble Lord who may wish to add to or amend the Bill doing so at a subsequent stage.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEI am very glad that the noble Lord intends to move that this Bill be referred to a Select Committee. An inquiry of the kind may afford a very valuable opportunity to any noble Lords who desire to make suggestions in regard to the Bill. My attention was drawn to it by some friends of mine who mentioned to me a particular clause of the Bill. It is Clause 75, which deals with the question of recreation grounds. That is a clause which, as drawn, appears to put it in the power of local authorities to make use of premises connected with these recreation grounds for the purpose of carrying on a trade in intoxicating liquors. That seems to me to be a very dangerous permission, and I think the matter requires to be looked into. But this led me to make some inquiries into the Parliamentary history of this 281 Bill, which is really rather a remarkable one. The Lord Chairman said something a moment ago of the enterprise which had been shown by its promotors. Let me tell your Lordships how that enterprise operated. I am told—and the noble Lord who is in charge of the Bill will no doubt correct me if I have been misinformed—that the Bill was referred to the Standing Committee on the 1st July. It then contained 142 clauses. The Committee dealt with it in one sitting. There were alterations covering 65 pages. During half the time no quorum of the Committee was present. The question of the regularity of the proceedings was afterwards raised in the House of Commons, and the Chairman of the Committee admitted fully that there had been irregularity. The Bill was thereupon re-committed. It came back to the House on the 29th July with 97 alterations, and it was not reprinted until the Report stage of the Bill had been taken at half-past three in the morning. The particular clause in which I have taken a slight interest was never before the House of Commons at all. It was not in the Bill at all on the occasion of the Second Reading, and when the Report stage was reached at an early hour of the morning the clause in question was not in print. We hear a great deal in these days of the manner in which we transact our proceedings, and I venture to think that if we ever have to make a collection of the curiosities of Parliamentary life the case which I have described to your Lordships will deserve a place in our museum.
LORD FITZMAURICEPerhaps I may be able to throw a little light upon some of the points which have been mentioned, and I venture to do so because my noble friend who introduced this Bill mentioned my name in connection with it, I having been some time Chairman of the Police and Sanitary Committee of the House of Commons, from the prolonged labours of which Committee this Bill has originated. Year after year, not only in the year in which I was Chairman, but long before and after, Reports came from that Committee under the chairmanship of such men as Mr. Walter Long (who I think may really be said to have been the founder of these proposals), Sir Henry Fowler, Mr. McKenna, and others, suggesting that the time had come when all these multifarious clauses which were put 282 into private Bills, and in regard to which a certain similarity of practice had grown up, should be incorporated, as in 1890, in one Bill, so as to save the local authorities the enormous expense and waste of time which they are put to by each of them individually having to bring in private Bills of their own. Nevertheless it was only gradually that agreement could be come to upon many of these questions. But now at length, owing largely to the labours of the gentleman whose name has been mentioned, and of whom I think no praise can possibly be too high—I mean Mr. Wilson—the present Bill has been prepared. I had the advantage of Mr. Wilson's presence on the Committee, and—I say it in no spirit of flattery—any success the Committee obtained under my chairmanship was very largely due to his presence and assistance; and he very naturally, in the course of time, became chairman of it. Now the time has come, I think in the opinion of everybody, when those clauses can be, with great public advantage, incorporated in one Bill, following the precedent of 1890. If any criticism can be made it is that probably this might have been done with advantage some years ago. But there were certain rather controversial questions involved in these matters; and, when the Bill was brought in, I understand that some of those matters, which still remained slightly controversial, were in the Bill. They, however, fortunately, as I should think, for the progress of the Bill, though on its merits I regret them, were removed at one stage or another in the House of Commons in order to facilitate the undisputed passage of the Bill. I allude more particularly to what are known as the milk clauses of the Bill, with regard to which there was an old controversy, which I was in hopes had terminated, as to what were the powers to be given to local authorities to inspect dairies and other places outside their own jurisdiction. I understand, however, that the President of the Local Government Board has got another Bill which, even if it does not pass this year, will deal with this question very largely, and will certainly be brought before Parliament next year. Then there was also a question about slaughter-houses, with regard to which, I may remind the House, the noble Lord brought in last year a Bill with which I personally had every sympathy. But there again controversy arose, because there was a 283 very powerful interest represented by the butchers of the country, who thought, like Alexander the Coppersmith of old, that their industry was going to suffer some great harm; and those clauses also were removed. Then there were clauses relating to a matter which I remember because it was more prominent than any other while I was chairman of the Committee—clauses relating to that very interesting and exciting topic as to when a common drain was to become a sewer. I am sure the Lord Chairman will agree with me that that question has caused in its time, and to him personally no doubt as Chairman, a very great amount of trouble and anxiety. But I understand that those clauses have also disappeared, because at length, after many years, it has been found possible to get a decision from the High Court to clear away the interesting accumulation, if I may use the expression, of legal rubbish which had got piled up around this apparently simple but really very complicated question. Therefore, the net result is, that by this decision the Bill practically became an undisputed Bill; and, although I think nobody can possibly complain of the noble Marquess' (the Marquess of Lansdowne) having called attention to what passed in the House of Commons, yet, as a matter of fact, the explanation is very simple, namely, that when this Bill really got into Committee and at subsequent stages it had become practically an undisputed Bill, and as people considered that there was going to be no controversy in the Committee, it was thought that it would be allowed to pass through in the rather rapid—and I admit theoretically peculiar—manner which the noble Marquess has not unnaturally mentioned to your Lordships' House. I hope I have been able to give the explanation of those circumstances; and if there are any cases like that which was mentioned just now of power to grant licences for alcoholic liquors having crept into the Bill in some unobserved and objectionable manner, I think the Committee will have no difficulty in dealing with them. But I most earnestly hope that, after the years of labour given by the Police and Sanitary Committee of the House of Commons, this Bill may be allowed to pass into law. And I hope your Lordships will also allow me to say that the Government, in starring this Bill, have desired to show that the charge which is occasionally 284 made—as I think unjustly—against those who sit on this side of the House and against this Government, that they are bringing in large and controversial measures and forgetting the large and important, though humbler, class of legislation which deals with the social interests of the people and those matters which come home to them in their hearths and homes, is not a just one, and that one proof of it is that the Government has taken under its protection, with every desire of passing it even late in the session, this long and, I venture to say, important Bill in order that it may find its way at last on to the Statute-book.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to. Bill read 2a accordingly.
THE EARL OF ONSLOWI now move that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee. And, in doing so, I venture to say that I hope your Lordships will not expect the Select Committee either to re-insert any of those somewhat controversial clauses which have been referred to, or, I am afraid, to deal very exhaustively with the question raised by the noble Lord the Marquess of Lansdowne. I quite agree that it is a very important question, and one which it would be better to leave to the House. As I said before, the House will have ample opportunities of considering the Bill at a later stage; and I am looking merely to the work of the Committee to put it into proper drafting shape, so that your Lordships may, when it comes back from the Committee, consider any important points of policy which may arise upon the Bill.
§ Moved "That the Bill be referred to a Select Committee."—(The Earl of Onslow.)
§ LORD ALLENDALEAs I indicated in the few remarks which I made in moving the Second Reading of the Bill, I concur on behalf of the Government with the proposal of the Lord Chairman to refer the measure to a Select Committee. With reference to the remark made by the Marquess of Lansdowne a little while ago, I have just been informed that the clause in question to which he took exception, although for some reason it was not printed in the Bill, had been in print for a month, and had been discussed by the Committee; but, owing to some 285 informality, it was not included in the Bill.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.