§ House in Committee (according to order).
§ [The EARL of ONSLOW in the Chair.]
§ Clauses 1, 2, 3 and 4 agreed to.
LOKD MONKSWELLMy Lords, I have an Amendment in the shape of a new clause after Clause 4. This is a Bill to enable the London County Council to acquire compulsorily land for sites of schools, and, of course, the land is to be acquired under the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act. The Amendment which I propose is a very usual one, and it is that Section 92 of that Act should not apply to this particular case. The section is to the effect that no party shall be required to sell part only of any house or other building or manufactory, if such party be willing to sell the whole thereof. It is found that this proviso in some cases acts injuriously, and it is proposed on this occasion to do away with it. I understand that the Board of Education agree that the section should not apply.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 4, to insert the following new clause:'Notwithstanding the provisions of Section 92 of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, the council may take such part of the lands, houses, and premises shown on plan No. 6, and distinguished thereon by the Nos. 1 to 21, and of the land, house, and premises shown on plan No.8, and distinguished thereon by the No. 2, and described in the schedule to this Act, as they may require without being required or compellable to purchase the whole or any greater part of any such lands, houses, and premises. The provisions of this section shall be stated in every notice given there under by the Council to sell and convey any premises." —(Lord Monkswell.)
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNBefore the Question is put, I should like to point out that this Amendment does not appear on the Paper.
LORD MONKSWELLIt has been down some days. Perhaps I ought to state that the notices to the owners have all been drafted on the assumption that this Amendment will pass.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNI do not want to offer any opposition to the Amendment at this stage. But is this the usual course to take in such cases? If it is the usual course there is nothing to be said against it, but if it is not I think it is necessary that your Lordships should have this Amendment before you. I do not know whether noble Lords have I seen it. Personally I have not, and I reserve my right, if it is inserted now, to move to omit it at a later stage of the Bill, if necessary.
LORD MONKSWELLI shall be very glad to show my noble friend the plan, and he will be able to judge whether the clause is necessary or not.
THE EARL OF ONSLOWI understand that the Amendment has been circulated about a fortnight. I do not know whether the noble Lord who has moved it will agree to take it at a later stage of the Bill.
LORD MONKSWELLI am entirely in the hands of the House. The Board of Education have seen the Amendment and also the plans on which the whole matter turns. The notices to the owners have been drafted on the assumption that this Amendment would pass. There has been abundant notice of it.
§ VISCOUNT KNUTSFORDThe noble Lord says that the notices to the owners have been drafted on the assumption that this Bill will he passed. Is it correct to say that? Have the owners consented? I understand that the Amendment, which I have not seen, enables the county council to take part of a property without taking the whole.
LORD MONKSWELLThe land proposed to be taken contains houses that have gardens attached to them which, under Clause 92 of the Act of 1845, 309 would have to be taken with the houses, but this land is going to be cleared of houses altogether. The houses are in course of being demolished, and consequently it will shortly become ordinary building land without any gardens, and Clause 92 would not apply.
§ VISCOUNT KNUTSFORDIs it to be cleared of these buildings after the county council have got hold of the land? Have; the owners agreed to that course?
§ LORD HENEAGEI think it would be much better that we should have an opportunity of seeing this Amendment and looking into the matter. It is curious that we should be told that notices have been sent out on the presumption that your Lordships would do what you were asked to do. I think we should have some opportunity of saying whether we approve or not.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl of CREWE)My Lords, I understand that this Amendment has been in the possession of the House for the last fortnight. So far as the Board of Education are concerned I have no direct interest in a matter of this kind. All that we have to do in the selection of sites of this description is to see that the Standing Orders are properly complied with, and that the site in question is suitable for a school. But, of course, all points as to the right or wrong of taking certain land are matters for the House. In this case no petition has been presented against the Bill, and consequently, so far as the Education Board are concerned, we are quite willing to agree to the Amendment.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNI would like to point out that this Bill has not been circulated to your Lordships.
§ THE EARL OF CREWEThese Bills never are circulated.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNWhy is the Amendment circulated if the Bill is not? Perhaps the noble Lord will explain.
LORD MONKSWELLWhen an Amendment is circulated it draws the attention of noble Lords to the Bill, and if they are interested they can go to the Paper Office and get a copy of the Bill.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNI prefer to have the Bill sent to me rather than to have to go to the Paper Office for it. The question I ask is, Is this the usual way of proceeding?
§ VISCOUNT KNUTSFORDAt the same time it is to be observed that the Department to which we look was absolutely satisfied without this Amendment.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYI agree with what has fallen from the noble Earl the Lord President of the Council. So far as the Board of Education are concerned, it is not a question into which they are drawn. Judging from the conversation which has taken place on this question, it does seem extraordinary that he Bill has not been circulated, whereas the Amendment has been in the hands of your Lordships during the last fortnight. I would suggest that in the circumstances the Amendment should be deferred until the Report stage, when the Bill will be in the hands of your Lordships.
LORD MONKSWELLThere is no Report stage. I really do not see the difficulty suggested by the noble Marquess. The noble Marquess has been long enough a Member of this House to know that these Bills are not circulated. Noble Lords get notice that an Amendment is going to be moved in Committee, which is the proper time to move them. I adopted the usual, and, I venture to say, the convenient course of moving the Amendment in the Committee stage, and if noble Lords, notwithstanding the fact that they received notice of the Amendment, did not go to the Paper Office and get a copy of the Bill, I do not see why the Amendment should be put off.
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of RIPON)I think my noble friend has followed the usual course in this matter. I understand that these Bills are never circulated. My noble friend has done all he could to conform with the usual practice in this matter, and I cannot see why the Amendment should be postponed.
§ THE EARL OF HALSBURYApart from any question whether or not the noble Lord who complains might have procured a copy of the Bill, surely there is no particular urgency in this matter. There would be no difficulty in postponing the discussion or taking the Amendment on the Third Reading, by which time noble Lords interested could have seen the Bill.
LORD MONKSWELLI am entirely in the Hands of the House. If the noble and learned Earl opposite wishes the Amendment to be taken on Third Reading, I have no objection, but I would point out that a discussion of this kind cannot take place on Third Reading.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI think this is a matter which requires a little attention. It is not a mere matter of form. It is one of substance—namely, whether your Lordships in coming to a decision on this clause have really an opportunity of knowing what the clause means. If noble Lords come down and tell your Lordships that, as a matter of fact, not having the text of the Bill in their hands, and therefore not being able to compare the Amendment with the text, it is impossible to judge what the effect of the Amendment is, it seems to me to stand to reason that the obvious course is that the discussion should be postponed until noble Lords have had time to make themselves acquainted with the points at issue. I therefore suggest that the noble Lord should move that the debate be now adjourned.
LORD MONKSWELLAs noble Lords seem to make a great deal of this matter, and it seems to be the general desire that it should stand over, I beg to move that the Committee stage be adjourned.
§ Moved, "That the Committee stage stand adjourned." —(Lord Monkswell.)
312§ On Question, Motion agreed to, and House resumed.