HL Deb 03 May 1906 vol 156 cc672-5

House in Committee (according to Order).

(The EARL of ONSLOW in the Chair.)

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2:

LORD DENMAN

explained that the Amendment standing in his name to this clause was necessitated by the Bill becoming law at a later date than was originally contemplated. He begged to move.

Amendment moved—; In Clause 2, page 2, line 40, after ('seven') to insert ('Provided that where the first ordinary poor rate made during the year 1906 was made before the passing of this Act, and the first special rate was not made therewith, then the amount of the instalment payable by any purchaser which would have been leviable by that rate shall be added to the amount of the second instalment payable by him, and the total amount of both instalments shall be levied by the special rate made at the same time as the first ordinary poor rate made during the year 1907.'"—;(Lord Denman.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3, agreed to.

Clause 4:

LORD DENMAN

said his Amendment to this clause was little more than a drafting one.

Amendment moved—; In Clause 4, page 3, line 16, after ('union') to insert ('and any rate made before the passing of this Act which would have been valid if this Act had previously passed.'"—;(Lord Denman.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to; and Bill reported with Amendments to the House.

Moved, that the Standing Committee be negatived.—;(Lord Denman.)

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE

objected to the proposal to negative the Standing Committee stage. He knew that there were several Members of their Lordships' House anxious to move important Amendments, and he thought the course which the noble Lord in charge of the Bill asked the House to take was a very unusual one. The sending of the Bill to the Standing Committee would cause but a trifling delay.

LORD DENMAN

did not think the course he proposed was at all unusual. The Standing Committee stage was frequently negatived in the case of Departmental Bills. The question was one of considerable urgency, because county councils in Ireland were fixing the rate mentioned in the Bill, and it was obviously necessary that they should do so under the law of the country, and that their action should be legalised as soon as possible. He hoped his noble friend on the Cross Benches would see his way to withdraw his objection to the Motion.

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE

regretted that he could not comply with the request of his noble friend. Several noble Lords who were anxious to move Amendments expected to have the opportunity of doing so in the Standing Committee. The reference of the Bill to the Standing Committee would only mean a delay of five days.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of RIPON)

My Lords, I hope the House will agree to the Motion which has been submitted by the noble Lord in charge of this Bill. As my noble friend explained on the occasion of the Second Reading, the Bill is to correct errors which have arisen in consequence of the Bill of the late Government not having passed into law through want of time. The object of the Bill is to legalise certain proceedings which have been taken, and which, without the Bill, would not be legal. It is, therefore, a measure of really urgent importance, and I trust your Lordships will agree to the Motion to negative the Standing Committee.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

My Lords, I have no doubt the Bill is a desirable one, and I do not think we on this side of the House have any intention whatever of obstructing its progress. On the other hand, it must be evident to any one who will read it through that it deals with some very technical points, and the noble Lord who sits on the Cross Benches tells your Lordships that he and some of his friends desire that these points should be further examined in Committee. If my noble friend is right in saying that a delay of five days is all that would be involved by the Bill going, in the ordinary course, to the Standing Committee, I must say it seems to me only reasonable that the course which he recommends should be adopted by your Lordships.

* THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl of CREWE)

I confess that we on this side of the House are somewhat disappointed at the action taken by the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition. The measure as it stands received the warm approval in another place of Mr. Walter Long, who is thoroughly acquainted with all the facts of the case. In these circumstances I do venture to make one more appeal to the noble Marquess and the Party opposite not to press their opposition to the Motion.

LORD ASHBOURNE

said there was not the slightest desire on the part of noble Lords on the Opposition side of the House to cause obstruction. The facts, broadly speaking, had been accurately stated. To the Bill itself there was no opposition, but he gathered from what he had heard that there was a desire to discuss Clause 3. This particular clause had been discussed in the House of Commons, and there was a difference of opinion upon it. Having regard to what had passed, he did not think it unreasonable that there should be some discussion and some ventilation of opinion upon it in their Lordships' House if desired.

THE MARQUESS OF RIPON

My Lords, I can only speak again by your Lordships' favour, but if you will allow me to do so I would point out that the Bill can be amended without going to the Standing Committee. It can be amended on Report or on Third Reading, Why, therefore, a Bill of this urgency should be delayed by being referred to the Standing Committee I cannot see.

LORD ASHBOURNE

agreed as to the power of the House to make Amendments at either of the stages named by the noble Marquess the Lord Privy Seal. He assumed that his noble friend on the Cross Benches only desired that full opportunity should be given for discussing such Amendments as he and his friends might put down. Having regard to the history of the Bill, that was only reasonable. Perhaps the noble Marquess would inform the House the day on which it was proposed to take the next stage.

THE MARQUESS OF RIPON

The Bill could be put down for Report tomorrow and for Third Reading on Monday, when Amendments could be discussed. The point is a small one and hardly worth disputing about. But it is not reasonable to ask that the Bill should be sent to the Standing Committee.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

If the noble Marquess the Leader of the House will tell us that in his opinion the immediate passage of this Bill is so urgent that the trifling delay for which my noble friend asks would create serious inconvenience, then I would advise my noble friend to accept the proposal of the noble Marquess and bring forward his Amendments, if he has any, at a future stage.

THE MARQUESS OF RIPON

I am informed that that is the case.

LORD ORANMORE and BROWNE

said that, in the circumstances, he would withdraw his opposition.

On Question, Standing Committee negatived.

The Report of Amendments to be received to-morrow; and Bill to be printed as amended. [No. 69.]