THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORErose to move to resolve, " That in view of the importance of the horse-breeding industry to the community in general, and of the necessity for an adequate and efficient supply of horses for military and other purposes, it is, in the opinion of the House, desirable that steps should be taken to improve the breeding of horses by giving effect to the recommendations of the Royal Commission on horse-breeding in their Tenth Report, especially to those having reference to the improvement of the quality of brood mares. "
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I confidently appeal to your Lordships to allow me to trespass upon your patience this evening in regard to a subject of very great importance, and a subject in which I know many of your Lordships take very great interest. The horse-breeding industry is one in connection with which there are many peculiar circumstances, which I think admit of the Government taking special steps to deal with it—steps that they are able to take without any interference with certain economic theories which I know are hold very strongly on the other side of the House and which 1277 are acted up to perhaps not quite so strongly. I take it that it will be granted on all sides that Government horse-breeding establishments such as are known on the Continent of Europe are in this country impracticable, and that it is infinitely more satisfactory, from every point of view, that the horse-breeding industry should be left in the hands of private individuals. But, in spite of that, there are many ways in which the Government can interest themselves in, and so indirectly benefit, the industry, and it is to some of those ways that I would ask to be allowed to direct your Lordships' attention.
We are fortunate in the fact that we have before us a great deal of information upon the subject. We have, first of all, the ten Reports of the Royal Commission on Horse-breeding—most valuable Reports—and I have also in my hand a document of very great interest, which I dare say has fallen under the notice of many of your Lordships, though it is not an official publication. It is a report of a special committee of the Hunters' Improvement Society which sat in the year 1904 and made some most interesting inquiries upon many branches of the subject. The members of the committee were all men well known as being thoroughly " up " in the subject. They made their inquiries by letter, and the evidence they collected went to show that whereas the breeding of thoroughbred horses, sires, and polo ponies is well looked after, that of hunters and the stamp of horse which is, after all, the Army stamp, shows an entire want of system and scientific treatment the actual words of their Report are—
With certain marked exceptions the industry is now being pursued in a haphazard manner, without skill or organisation, and, generally speaking, with but moderate success.I believe there are in existence Government Returns which show that the number of horses in this country has increased, but the evidence that was submitted to this Committee proves that whereas the total number of horses has increased the number of useless mal formed, unhealthy horses has increased disproportionately to the increase in the total number of horses.1278 Three things would appear to be necessary to deal with the evils which we know to exist. The first is the provision of better sires. I know that something is already done in this direction. The State spends, I think, £8,500 a year—£5,000 in England through the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding, and £3,500 in Ireland through the Department of Agriculture. The £3,500 a year which is spent in Ireland used, I believe, to be spent under the direction of the Royal Dublin Society, but it has been recently transferred. This branch of the subject is a most difficult one to deal with, but I am happy in the knowledge that several members of your Lordships' House who are well skilled in its intricacies intend addressing your Lordships upon it after I have sat down, and therefore I am not going into the question in detail. But perhaps I may say, in passing, that the evidence of the Committee to which I have referred shows that the system under which the State at present spends this money annually in improving sires by the offering of King's praemia is popular with the farmers, that in their opinion the work is most satisfactorily done by the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding, and that on the whole the present accepted typo of sire is approved of, though on this point opinions are not absolutely unanimous. I may perhaps mention, as a small proof of the fact that it is worth while giving attention to this subject, that Government Returns show that of 2,460 sires in Ireland alone only 662 are thoroughbred. 633 of the remainder are carthorse sires, and what this large number of carthorse sires are being used for in Ireland, I find it difficult to understand, unless they are contaminating the hunter blood.
The second thing which seems to be necessary is the provision of good mares. The Tenth Report of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding, issued a year ago, stated—
We believe the time has come when something more should be done to improve the quality of mares. There is no doubt that much good could be done in this by your Commissioners, but with the small sum available for our use we find ourselves unable to deal further with this matter.The Committee of the Hunters' Improvement Society, already referred to, 1279 draws special attention to the fact that good mares are being withdrawn from this country at an alarming rate, and that this country which breeds them gets no further use of them for breeding purposes. I do not, of course, suggest that we should go to the length adopted by some other countries, from which it is absolutely forbidden to export mares, but I think steps should be taken on a large scale to deal with this important part of the subject—a part which has hitherto been, until, at any rate, two years ago, neglected on all sides.Two years ago a society was organised in this country—the Brood Mare Society— which has now issued its second Report, and I wish particularly to draw your Lordships' attention to the methods which that Committee has pursued, and pursued, as I hope I shall be able to show your Lordships, with success. The Committee commenced, of course, in a small way, but it has provided an organisation aimed at placing within the reach of the horse-breeding community mares of good stamp and quality at moderate cost, and the organisation has worked smoothly from the first. Its procedure is as follows. It obtains mares either by purchase or by gift, and I acknowledge gratefully that private owners have been most generous on the latter head. There are now fifty mares in this country in conditions which I will now describe to your Lordships under the æigis of the society, and twenty-nine of these have been presented to the society. These mares are given to farmers for breeding purposes under certain conditions, and local committees are organised to watch the intimate working of the system almost from day to day.
The rules of the society provide that the mare remains the property of the society, and has to be given up on demand. I need not explain the reason for that; it is pretty obvious. But the farmer may use the mare while in his possession for such work as she is capable of performing, having clue regard to the foal and the period of foaling. She must be at all times properly cared for, and the local committee is responsible for seeing that this condition is fulfilled. The stallion employed must be selected or approved by the local committee, and all expenses are borne by the custodian—the farmer. All foals belong to the custodian if they 1280 are colts, but the first two fillies must be sold to the society, if the society requires-them, for £35 at a certain age—I think it is three-and-a-half years—and the custodian is made to join the society and gets all these benefits for £2 a year.
Briefly the position is this. The farmer gets the mare for nothing, he feeds her, he breeds from her; the colts are absolutely his own, but the society has the option of purchasing the first two fillies at £35; subsequently all fillies are his own. we have now about fifty of these-mares distributed in Leicestershire, Dorsetshire, Herefordshire, and Cornwall. Farmers eagerly accept the mares of the society. We have found that on a small scale suitable mares can be obtained, and; that local gentlemen of knowledge and position are ready to help us on our local committees. We claim that the custodian of the mare gets good value for his money, and your Lordships will see-that the power we have of purchasing the first two fillies at £35 a-piece gives-us an opportunity of ensuring that these fillies shall be used in future for improving the general stock. We believe that the breeder appreciates this position just as much as the central committee of the-society. This society has fifty mares under their system as the result of two years work, and think it is highly creditable to them that they have not got one halfpenny of debt.
The Report of the Committee of the Hunters Improvement Society to which I have already referred shows that there was undoubtedly need for the formation of the society. One of the questions asked was whether occupiers, of land would be likely to assist in the movement by which suitable brood mares should be provided by a central society under certain conditions for breeding purposes. The answers received were— favourable, 222; unfavourable, 126; doubtful, 118. I am glad to say that of the 118 who were doubtful, 100 were doubtful only because it was thought that there were practical difficulties. This committee sat in 1904, and the experience of the last two years has proved that these practical difficulties can be overcome. The next question asked was—
Do you consider that there is a sufficient number of brood mares in your district suitable. 1281 to breed light horses, and, if so, what is the approximate number?There were only seventy-five replies, out of a total of very nearly 500, which showed satisfaction with the present 'condition of things. I will only quote three or four at random. Here is a reply from Kent—Plenty of brood mares, but no good for breeding.''From county Down—A great number of brood mares, but, as a rule, they are animals rejected at sale. Everything that will pass the veterinary inspector is sold.From County Wexford—Farmers buy any mare, and chance the getting of a foal.From Pembrokeshire—No attention is paid to the mares. Farmers breed from any mares they happen to have.From Yorkshire—All good mares are bought by dealers every year, and, as a rule, sold to the foreigner.These are typical answers. I cannot refrain from alluding to the last quotation from the evidence, which also comes from Yorkshire—During the bad time twenty years ago, fanners parted with their old breeds that had been in Yorkshire for years and took to hackneys. They have now discovered their mistake.I venture to say that any man who has had anything to do with hackneys deserves to be flayed alive.I say quite openly and candidly to the noble Earl opposite that we want help from the Government. We claim to have it known that, beginning in a small way, we have provided an organisation which is workable and popular, and we think we are justified now in coming to the Government and asking them to help us to a certain extent. Our subscriptions up to the present time have amounted to £250, and the work we have accomplished has been done without incurring a halfpenny of debt. We are a cheap organisation, and claim that we are worthy of consideration and help from His Majesty's Government. We could be helped in many ways. We could be helped by an annual grant. It might be convenient, perhaps, that that grant should be given to the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding for mares, and they 1282 might employ our society as their agents. I throw that out as one way in which some assistance could be given.
But there is another way in which the Government could help us. Could they not persuade the War Office to lot us have mares at ten or eleven years of age for breeding purposes, if not for nothing, at a small cost? As I have said, the committee of the Hunters' Improvement Society have ascertained that throe-fourths of the animals purchased by the Government are scarcely ever permitted to return and reproduce their species. That is supported by my own experience at the War Office, when certain facts in connection with this matter came under my notice. I know it is the fashion for the War Office to keep horses and mares as long as a spark of work remains in them. That may be the cheaper policy at the moment, but I think it is on the whole a bad investment. The Government would do much better if they gave some serious attention to this matter and helped our society in the direction I have indicated. I would suggest also that they might take our three and a half year old mares at approximately the price we pay for them from the farmer, on the understanding that afterwards they give them back to us for the purpose of reproducing their species under our auspices.
I do not ask for a large grant. I know that the noble Earl opposite is a most liberal man, and those who were present in your Lordships' House a week ago know that he has large ideas as to what constitutes a small sum. I do not want the small sum which the noble Earl is content to see spent annually by the London County Council on steamboats, but I think he might help us, as I am sure he will if he can see his way to do so, in the direction I have indicated. A little would go a long way and would have an appreciable effect in the direction of retaining good strains of blood in this country.
Moved to resolve, "That, in view o the importance of the horse-breeding f industry to the community in general, and of the necessity for an adequate and efficient supply of horses for military and other purposes, it is, in the opinion of the House, desirable that steps should be taken to improve the breeding of horses 1283 by giving effect to the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding in their Tenth Report, especially to those having reference to the improvement of the quality of good mares."— (The Earl of Donoughmore.)
THE DUKE OF PORTLANDMy Lords, as one who has for many years, in fact, ever since its inauguration, had the honour of serving on the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding I have much pleasure in supporting the Motion which has been moved by Lord Donoughmore and in doing so I would like to say a few words in general on the subject to which he has alluded. I have felt for some time that the horse-breeding industry is in a most precarious position, notwithstanding that Government statistics show an increase in the number of horses bred in this country.
My reason for saying this is that I consider the advent of the motor car—a most useful and convenient mode of transit for those who can afford to own a motor car—cannot but have, sooner or later, a weakening influence on the horse-breeding industry in general. I doubt not that before very long several of the functions which horses at present perform in the streets of our largo towns and also in our country districts will be carried out by means of petrol or some other chemical compound. Holding this opinion I think it is the duty of every one interested in the subject—the Government included-—to do what they can to foster the industry, not only for the sake of the farmer and the horse-breeder, but also for national purposes. More especially is this the case when we take into consideration the fact that in all probability before very long the streets of London and other large towns will be filled with motor omnibuses, thereby decreasing the supply of that kind of horse which I am credibly told was one of the most useful animals during the late war in South Africa.
I cannot help thinking, my Lords, that one way of encouraging horse-breeding would be, as mentioned in the last Report of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding, for the Government to buy their young stock at three years old instead of at four years old as, I believe, is now the general practice. The difficulty and 1284 expense to farmers to keep their young, horses until they have turned four years old before selling them I believe to be very great. It is well known, too, that the expense of keeping a young horse during the winter between three and four years old is much greater than in the-previous years of that young horse's life. The farmer in many instances, or, perhaps, I may say in most instances, cannot afford this, as the price he generally receives for his young horses rising five years old is one which does not usually pay him a due return for all the trouble and expense involved. After three years the young horse becomes troublesome and it is necessary to break him, which nowadays the farmer or the farmer's son is very often quite unable to do, and therefore it is necessary to relegate the young horse to the local horse-breaker.
In the old days when the agricultural industry was in a prosperous condition the farmer could very often afford to hunt and was frequently—in fact, more often than not—a really good horseman; but bad times have changed all this, and now, comparatively speaking, few farmers can afford the expense of keeping a horse to follow the hounds. I imagine that if the Government could be induced to buy their young horses for remounts and for other purposes at three years old instead of at four years old, and have those young horses taken in hand and carefully and systematically trained, not only would they thereby confer a great benefit on the fanner and the horse brooder in general, but I think we should hear fewer complaints of the decade n co of the horse-breeding industry, hurried, as I fear it will be, to its end by the coming of the motor-car. My idea is that the Government should pay about the same price for an animal rising four years old, or what is known as three off, as they do now for one rising five. It might, in the first instance, cost a little more money, but the great advantage that would accrue would be that the Government would, obtain an unbroken animal which could be trained according to scientific principles and the requirements of the present day, instead of a half broken brute which most probably had acquired every possible kind of bad habit—habits most difficult and probably impossible to cure, and which sometimes render that animal totally useless for every practical purpose. 1285 With regard to the work of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding I think, considering the very small sum of money which has been at its disposal, it has done as much as it could to provide sound thoroughbred horses. It may interest your Lordships to know that the number of champion prizes, challenge cups, gold and silver medals, and other prizes won by the stock of the King's premium stallions at the chief agricultural and other shows in the country during the last eight years is no less than 3,131, or an average of about 391 prizes a year. Speaking of the horses I think, too, that the quality generally has much improved; and at the annual shows of the Royal Commission the number of unsound horses is certainly decreasing in a most remarkable way. I find that at the first show, held at Nottingham in February, 1888, sixty-four horses were submitted for examination and no less than thirty-four were rejected as unsound. In the next year, 1889, when the Royal Commission held its show at Islington, fifty-one were submitted for examination and seventeen failed to pass; whilst at the show in 1905—the last show which I personally attended—only three horses were rejected by the veterinary surgeons out of fifty-six examined; and from the classes confined to England only one horse out of seventy-five was rejected from the horses shown in those classes.
I am happy to think, my Lords, that many private individuals are doing and have done their best to keep good sound thoroughbred stallions for their tenants and for farmers, but undoubtedly the great difficulty is, as my noble friend Lord Donoughmore has said, the lack of brood mares. I have often, both in public and privately, urged farmers to keep half-bred males and also to breed from nothing but good sound serviceable animals. Nowadays, however, there is naturally a great temptation to sell good mares to pay the expense of a farm, and I regret to say that a deaf ear has generally been turned to my well-meant but seldom-listened-to advice. I still believe that in the long run it would pay farmers much better to keep their good mares and breed from them themselves than to yield to momentary 1286 temptation and take the first tempting offer which is made to them.
With regard to the Brood Mare Society, of which Lord Donoughmore, I believe, is president, I should like to say that I consider it has in view most praiseworthy objects, which should certainly be most generously supported. Personally I thoroughly approve of its objects and of its means of procedure, for it is carrying out a plan which some time ago I tried to inaugurate on my own property in the-Midland counties. I trust I may not be thought desirous of self-advertisement or of calling attention to my own personal affairs—for such, I can assure your Lordships, is very far from my object—when I say that a few years ago, finding that, practically speaking, there were no serviceable brood mares for the production of half-bred horses on my estate, I had the greatest pleasure in purchasing in Ireland thirty-six brood mares to distribute to my tenants, with the idea of having a permanent stock of half-bred horses in the district where I live. I regret to say, however, that in most instances the colts and fillies—and I especially regret the loss of the fillies—have been sold, and those animals have been lost to that part of the country which I wished and intended to benefit.
But, my Lords, it is never too late to mend, and I am still trying to persuade my friends to keep the mares they breed, and I trust they will listen to my advice, especially as some of the produce of the mares I distributed have been prize-winners on several occasions. I trust this will induce their owners to keep them and to breed from them with the view of possible future gain. I am glad to note that the Brood Mare Society has by its rules safeguarded itself against the error into which. I fell. The rule is that those who have mares given out by the society should keep the fillies they breed until three years old, and then return them to the society if the society so desires. I did not make a rule to that effect, and I am extremely sorry for it. I trust that the fillies bred from the mares which the Brood Mare Society have distributed may be kept by those who are lucky enough to possess them.
In conclusion, my Lords, without in any way pledging the Royal Commission 1287 on Horse Breeding, of which I am only a humble member, to adopt the methods of the Brood Mare Society, I must express the sincere hope that the Government will see their way to grant a further sum of money towards the encouragement— nay, towards the very existence—of the half-bred horse-breeding industry of this country, which I regret to think is now so grievously threatened, and which I think is likely to be practically extinguished if some further steps are not taken to give it new and increased life and vigour.
§ LORD RIBBLESDALEMy Lords, I welcome this opportunity of saying a few words in support of the Resolution which has been so ably moved by Lord Donoughmore, and, as a member of the Royal Commission since its appointment, I wish to associate myself with every word which I has fallen from the noble Duke who acted for a great many years as the Chairman of that body and to whom the whole horse-breeding industry in this country is indebted for a great deal of zeal and unremitting devotion. As Lord Donoughmore has told us, and as his Resolution makes abundantly clear, more money for I brood mares is the essence of this subject, and belonging as I do to the straightest sect of free traders, I can quite understand that noble Lords who sit on the Front Bench below me may ask, "How is it that you are able to reconcile your settled convictions with what is undoubtedly a bounty system and a request for an extension of the bounty system? " I quite admit that dilemma, andde minimis non curat lexis not an answer which I am prepared to give.
I should like, in this connection, to go back for a moment to the inception of the Royal Commission, and I think I may be able to say something which will be reassuring to the noble Earl on the Front Bench, the Minister for Agriculture, whoso duty it will be, I suppose, to give the official answer to this Resolution. I remember very well, when first the question of appointing a Commission of this sort came into what I will call practical horse-breeding politics, going with the Duke of Portland to see Mr. Goschen, as he then was, and Lord Welby. We explained our position, and we were met by the difficulty of public money being asked for a bounty system. We were, however, able to run 1288 the gauntlet of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's objections, and our proposals having been most severely scrutinised, this public money was given to us. At first the sum of £2,300 was derived from Queen's Plate, and £1,000 odd from the Privy Purse, and the rest was made up by Votes on the Estimates; but since then, I believe, the whole of the grant has been put on the Estimates. I do not believe that Mr. Goschen would have admittedde minimis non, curat lex.He would no doubt have said he would not break through his principles on that sort of ground. But he did break through his principles, because he recognised that we had put forward cogent reasons which justified the finding of money for this industry, which was pining for want of assistance
One reason why mares are not forthcoming is that you have no longer highbred idle mares in England, and you will never have good horses until idle mares are back with us again. What we really want is more help with regard to mares. The Brood Mare Society have set us a good I example. Their plan seems to be a very good one. We have not as a Commission had an opportunity of corning into close I relations with them, but we have had some correspondence, and theirmodus operandiseems sagacious and reasonable, and to have been crowned with as large a modicum of success as a small enterprise of that kind could hope to achieve
I have been a member of the Royal Commission since its inception, when, in Mr. Goschen's phrase, he invited the noble Duke opposite and myself to guide its infant action, and so I can speak with some experience of the extreme faithfulness with which that Commission has performed the small services which have been entrusted to it. I asked the Secretary of the Commission to give me a short préis containing the substance of the proposals to the Commission from the Brood Mare Society. The last sentence is—
It is believed that the Remount Department and also the Board of Agriculture favour the plan of the Brood Mare Society, which offers a foundation on which to build further developments.That is a fine, vague sentence, and I should be very glad to hear from my noble friend Earl Carrington that there is something; in it. At all events, I feel that the 1289 future prosperity of the horse-breeding industry could hardly be in safer hands than in those of the present Minister for Agriculture, and I am sure that, as far as my noble friend is concerned, no pains will be spared to give effect, within the possible limits of political economy, to the proposals which have emanated from the Brood Mare Society, and which have been so ably stated by Lord Donoughmore.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, I confess that I listened with the greatest interest to the speeches that were delivered by the noble Duke below me and by the noble Lord opposite. In the days of my youth I remember hunting in my own country in the North of Scotland, but, after a time, hunting was given up. Fences were constructed, and instead of having a really good class of horse the whole breed deteriorated, and at the present moment it is almost impossible to get a horse of the class referred to in any part of that country. Some time ago a certain number of my tenants who joined the Yeomanry and required to get a lighter class of horse, asked me if I would provide them with a stallion. This I was glad to do, and the stallion I provided was very useful for several years.
But what I found was this, that the mares were so bad that it was almost impossible to effect any real improvement in the stock; at least, it would take many years before that could be done. For that reason I heartily welcome the suggestion which has been put forward by the Brood Mare Society. I think it will have a most excellent effect, and that it will open out a new industry in the North of Scotland. If more through-bred sires were sent up it would also have a great effect if they were mixed with Highland mares, I hope that the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture will grant the assistance which has been asked for the Brood Mare Society.
THE EARL OF DUNRAVENMy Lords, I should like to say a word or two as to the best means of keeping good brood mares in the country. My noble friend Lord Donoughmore alluded to the stallions in Ireland. I think he rather exaggerated the case against 1290 them. I forget the exact number he mentioned as thoroughbreds. I cannot pretend to speak from any recent information, but I had the honour nine or ten years ago of being chairman of a Vice-Regal Commission which inquired into the question of horse-breeding in Ireland, and I think my noble friend will find that cart horses of quite a good class are reared in the North of Ireland for the purposes of the largo towns, though not for agricultural work. I think he will find also that of the stallions that are not included as thoroughbreds a great number are perfectly suitable sires for getting hunters and horses of that description; in fact, I am confident that he will find on inquiry that some of the very best horses that have been bred in Ireland have been sired by stallions which, though practically thoroughbred, are not in the book.
Though speaking only from memory, I well recollect that over and over again in the Report of the Vice-Regal Commission to which I have referred the extreme injury being done to the industry in Ireland by the way in which the country was being denuded of brood mares was emphasised. It was not so much that the breeders, many of them small farmers, did not understand the advantages of breeding from a good mare, but that they could not withstand the temptation of the high prices they got from foreign buyers. I believe that the most cast-iron economist of the so-called free trade school will agree that if there is a danger of our home supply of horses for military purposes deteriorating it will be legitimate to take steps for safeguarding against a failure of the supply in the hour of need. I sincerely hope His Majesty's Government may be able to give some financial assistance to the scheme which my noble friend has mentioned. I think the most legitimate way of aiding this very desirable scheme would be by financial assistance, and I sincerely hope His Majesty's Government may find themselves able to give it.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (Earl CARRINGTON)My Lords, I desire at the outset to thank my noble friend behind me for the courteous and kind words he used as regards myself, and I need hardly assure your Lordships that 1291 everything I can do to promote this desirable object will be most willingly done. Noble Lords will have seen from the speeches that have been delivered to-night that it is generally agreed that horse-breeding in this country is not in a satisfactory state. As we have been told during the last ten years, there has been a sum of £8,500 annually spent, and I am bound to say well spent, by the Royal Commission.
§ EARL CARRINGTONYes, £5,000 by the noble Duke's Commission and £3,500 in Ireland. The names of the members of the Royal Commission are sufficient guarantee that the expenditure of this money is in wise hands, and the result has been that the King's premium stallions have visited different parts of England and have covered mares at the rate, I believe, of £2. The amount of; money at the disposal of the Royal Commission, however, compares unfavourably with the expenditure of foreign countries. I notice that in Italy £84,000 a year is spent; in Austria, £140,000 a year; in Hungary, £233,000; in Germany, £190,000; and in France, £308,000.
Although I would be the first to admit the good work done by the Royal Commission, I respectfully suggest some reconsideration of the scope of their work, and the desirability of bringing the War Office and the Board of Agriculture into their counsels. I hope this will not be considered as in any way an impertinent suggestion; I only throw it out in the hope that the good work done by the Royal Commission may be in some way extended. The horse-breeding question has not escaped the attention of the War Office itself. Last year the War Office and the Board of Agriculture were in communication upon the subject; and in February of this year a conference was held at which the attention of the Board of Agriculture was called to the scarcity of mares. The conference found that there was a considerable decline in the export of mares excepting during last year, 1905, but this is not so satisfactory as it seems, because the value of the mares exported averaged one-third more 1292 than the mares imported. It is therefore, fair to assume that the foreign buyers are getting the best of our English mares.
Farmers are, as the noble Duke said, no longer able to keep the stamp of mare that is best suited for Army work, and one of the reasons given by the noble Duke was that they get a better price for hunters and harness horses. The War Office price for a four-year-old horse is certainly small. The consequence naturally is that the farmer gets rid of all the best horses he can for harness and hunting, and the failures are sold to the Army and become remounts. Again, as the noble Duke pointed out, very few farmers now hunt; very few of them keep a saddle horse, and of course that is a matter to be regretted.
Admitting the scarcity of mares, the question is, What is best to be done? As regards the Army I understand that in peace time there is absolutely no difficulty in getting remounts. About 5,000 horses a year are then sufficient. Some people rely on Yeomanry horses, but as far as my own experience goes it seems to me that Yeomanry horses are very much like the horses in a stage army—they appear over and over again. The Royal Bucks Hussars ride them one day; they then go over into Oxfordshire and are ridden by the Oxfordshire Yeomanry. As I have said, there is no difficulty in getting remounts in peace time; but what is to be done in the event of war? At the present moment there is no adequate reserve and no system to replenish waste, and all we have to depend on in case of war is a system of registration which I do not think is a great success.
We have had many practical suggestions made this evening. The noble Earl opposite has asked the Government to assist in the work of the Brood Mare Society. I do not doubt that that society is serving a very good purpose, and deserving of the very greatest credit for what they have done, but I am not certain that the price proposed to be paid for the first two fillies would be sufficient to tempt the farmers to accept the offer it is proposed should be made to them. The noble Earl then suggested that the War Office should give to the Brood Mare Society mares of 1293 eleven or twelve years of age. My experience of a cavalry regiment is that the colonel will not cast anything so long as it has legs to stand on. I am told that 75 per cent, of these animals are probably barren, and that others suffer from various defects so that to send those old ladies to the stud would be an expensive and disappointing operation. If my noble friend can get commanding officers to send these animals when there is still some work in them thon, of course, there might be something in the suggestion. I think we are all agreed on the main point that it is desirable to encourage farmers to keep their best mares for brooding purposes, and that the Government should have some sort of lien on their progeny.
Then comes the question of identification. It struck me when the noble Earl was speaking that there should be some guarantee that the foal was the identical foal that came from the mare handed over to the farmer. That might be secured by the Australian system of branding. I was very glad to hear that the idea, of a Government stud farm met with no favour. The noble Duke advised the Government to buy horses from farmers when they were throe years old or rising four the opinion of the noble Duke is very valuable and ought to receive every consideration, but 1 believe there are objections to that course. I would point out that the War Office Committee which sat in 1902, and was presided over by Lord Stanley, recommended that the Government should not buy any horses under five years old; and I think that to buy horses younger and to keep thorn for a year would materially add to the expense. The practical question is, is it worth while for the Government to encourage the breeding of certain classes of horses; is it right that money should be spent against the dearth of horses in the event of a great Avar, and that a large reserve should be kept up as an assurance against what we all hope is a very remote contingency, or should the country wait and " buy through the nose" if such a contingency should arise? It is really a question of expense. If more is to be done in encouraging the breeding of these horses, of course more money must be provided. But I am not Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I 1294 cannot pledge the Government to any future expenditure. I should be very sorry to say a single word which would' look as a pledge that this extra expenditure would be entertained; but I think that if there is a general consensus of opinion on both sides of the House, and if we can produce a well thought out scheme, it certainly would go some way to induce the Treasury to provide the necessary funds to carry out so desirable an object. I do not think I am going too' far when I say that the state of things at the present time is almost of a dangerous character, and that some remedy is absolutely necessary.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYMy Lords, I feel sure your Lordships will not contradict me when I say that this debate has been of a very interesting character, and has shown the absolute necessity of the Government's doing something to improve horse-breeding in this country the noble Earl who called attention to this matter to-night stated his case with the greatest lucidity and ability, and I am sure the sympathetic character of the speech of the noble Earl who has just sat down must have been received by him with gratification. If there is one Member of His Majesty's Government better qualified than another to deal with this subject it is my noble friend, who has had experience in the Army and as a master of hounds, and knows full well how important the breeding of good horses is to the agricultural community.
The noble Duke pointed out that it might be advantageous to buy horses at an earlier period, and I think that suggestion might commend itself to His Majesty's Government. I have frequently tried to convince agricultural audiences in those parts of the country with which I am associated that if they wish to counteract depression in certain, branches of agriculture they can do so by breeding and rearing the best of stock, and I think the debate to-night will go far to encourage that idea. The noble Duke, who speaks on this subject with an. authority which is almost unequalled in this House, drew attention to the fact that since the King's premium horses have been located in the country unsound 1295 horses have more or less disappeared from competition in the great shows.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYI think that speaks volumes for the good results of the action taken by the Royal Commission for the purpose of stamping out unsound horses. But what is the use of providing the country with first rate stallions unless you have the best of mares? Undoubtedly the best mares have left this country as a result of agricultural depression, and I welcome the statement of the noble Earl that he will impress upon his colleagues the necessity of doing something to retain mares in this country. It seems to me that the Brood Mare Society are going a long way in the endeavour to provide suitable mares.
I was a Member of the Vice-Regal Commission presided over by my noble friend Lord Dunraven, and I remember then that the question of appealing for a sum of money to retain good mares was rejected by us. It may seem inconsistent that I should have gone back on that. But at that time we did not consider, in view of the purpose for which the Commission was held, that we were in a position to ask the Government to incur this expenditure. With regard to the identification of the animals, I think the local societies can be trusted to continue and extend the present system of marking, which would be quite adequate. I thank the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture for his sympathetic speech, and I hope he will not allow the matter to remain there. I know the difficulty of extracting money from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but if the noble Earl represents the absolute necessity of helping agriculture at the present time I do not think the Government will be behindhand in giving assistance.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House adjourned at twenty minutes before Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.