ADDRESS IN REPLY TO HIS MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.

HL Deb 19 February 1906 vol 152 cc25-66

THE MARQUESS OF NORTHAMPTON

My Lords, I beg to move that an humble Address be presented to His Majesty thanking him for his gracious Speech from the Throne. I am sure your Lordships will agree with me that our special thanks are due to His Majesty for having personally opened Parliament at the beginning of this session. We must all feel that his personal inclinations would have taken him to Denmark to accompany Her Majesty, but the King subordinated his private wishes to a kingly duty, and we owe him our thanks for having done so. We also would like, I feel sure, to express our sympathy with their Majesties in the sorrow which has just come upon them. The late King of Denmark had endeared himself to his subjects; he was a wise and good ruler, and was also the centre of the happiest and most affectionate family life. I am sure I am only echoing the feelings of your Lordships when I tender to their Majesties the expression of our deepest sympathy with them in their sorrow, and assure them that the expression is not a mere form of words but comes from our hearts.

We regret the absence of Her Majesty to-day, and we also notice the absence of two other members of the Royal Family. We have been watching with the greatest interest and increasing satisfaction the Royal progress of their Royal Highnesses the Prince and Princess of Wales throughout the great dependencies of India, and we can congratulate His Majesty upon the wisdom which he has shown in sending the Heir Apparent and his Princess on a mission for cementing still closer all parts of the Empire to the British Throne. We are glad to think that that mission has been so successful. Its success has been proved by the enthusiasm with which their Royal Highnesses have been received by the peoples of India, and also by the fact that all the great Princes and Chiefs of the various States have vied with each other in according them a splendid and royal welcome as a mark, as a further mark, of their loyalty and attachment to their Emperor. My Lords, I now pass to the paragraph which refers to our relations with Foreign Powers, and I will say how thankful we all are that the old phrase can still be used that friendly relations exist between this country and all other nations. With some the friendly relations have been strengthened during the past twelve months. The visit of the King of the Hellenes was an additional proof of the great friendship which has always existed between ourselves and the Greek nation; the agreement with Japan has been prolonged and strengthened; and the entente cordiale with France has also been strengthened by the interchange of visits by the two great municipalities of Paris and London. We are thankful to be able to say that at this moment the world is at peace, and, although there may be international difficulties, yet wherever those difficulties are the sword is sheathed and peaceful diplomacy is at work.

I am glad to think that the policy of His Majesty's Government as regards foreign affairs has been distinctly declared, and that that policy is one of continuity. As one who served for many years in the diplomatic service, I can bear witness that there is nothing more dangerous to the interests of this country than that there should be even a suspicion in the minds of foreign nations that a change of Government would mean a change of policy in our foreign affairs. Another lesson I learned from serving under such great diplomatic masters as Lord Lyons and Lord Dufferin was that when one made a public speech on foreign affairs, and when the most delicate International questions were being discussed and deliberated, it was wise to observe an extreme reticence and discretion. I only wish that that reticence and discretion could be observed not only by all public men, but by all leader writers in the Press. I would, therefore, only say, as regards Morocco and the Algeciras Conference, that there seems to be only two points of difficulty—perhaps one of extreme difficulty—but we can safely leave, as far as we are concerned, in the hands of our able representative, Sir Arthur Nicholson, the duty which has been imposed upon him by His Majesty's Government of giving a full diplomatic support to our friend and neighbour, France, and at the same time not giving a sign of hostility to any other nation. Our hope, and as far as I am concerned, my belief, is that a successful determination will come from the efforts of the Conference. Able diplomatists are at work, and I believe that the work of able diplomatists will always be successful.

I will now, my Lords, leave foreign affairs and address myself to matters which effect our Empire and the mother country. The first paragraph that I will allude to is that which refers to the Transvaal and to the Orange River Colony. It is stated clearly that responsible government will be granted, which means that the proposal of the late Government will not be carried out. I think it would have been quite impossible for any Liberal Government to have come to any other conclusion. I cannot imagine anything more dangerous than to grant, as was proposed to be granted, representative government without imposing upon the representative assemblies the sobering influence of responsibility. I cannot think that the Crown Colony system, as it is called, can be a good one, for it contains in it an element of the maximum of friction which may come between the Representative Assemblies in the Colonies and the Home Government. I am, therefore, glad that His Majesty's Government determined to deal with this matter with a generous hand. I am also glad that it is not to be done in haste, but that full information is to be procured as regards all the details that are necessary in order to arrive at the best form of government to be given; and I can only re-echo the words of His Majesty's speech, that it is our belief and hope that these new Colonies will, as time goes on, prosper as our other Colonies have done, knowing that they have the full responsibility of government on their shoulders. The question of Chinese labour—a question which has been a good deal ventilated lately—will be handed over to the new Government in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony. I am extremely glad that so many of your Lordships approve of that. I regret, and regret intensely, that at the eleventh hour new licences were granted, but, as far as I can understand from what has fallen from the legal advisers of His Majesty's Government, that action was irrevocable. No more licences, however, are to be allowed until the Colonies have settled the question for themselves. I feel that it is a question that should be left for those on the spot to decide.

Now, as regards home affairs, I turn for one moment to the paragraph in the Speech relating to Ireland. No actual legislative measure is either defined or foreshadowed in that paragraph, but a, policy is clearly laid down which must ultimately, I suppose, take shape. From my experience in Ireland during two of the worst years in the history of that unfortunate country, I feel convinced that some part of the devolution schemes which have been brought forward contain a good deal that is useful and right, and I also feel that the more we can entrust to the Irish people the administration of their local affairs the better it will be for Ireland. I am glad that the policy of His Majesty's Government will be to develop, and perhaps to carry still further, that policy which seemed to be the policy of the late Government up to a certain date, and that the policy of devolution such as we imagined was going to be carried out by Mr. Wyndham will take effect in years to come. As a well-wisher to Ireland, as one who thoroughly realises the feelings of the Irish people as regards the mismanagement—I will not say more—of Irish affairs in the distant past, and as one who also can thoroughly realise their aspirations for the future, I sincerely hope that a good deal will be done in order to give the Irish people a greater share of the management of their own local affairs, while maintaining the unity—for it must be preserved—of the United Kingdom with Ireland.

I pass to the thorny subject of education. I do not think, after the determined opposition which the late Government's Act has met with, after all that has been said of that Act since, and after the result of the general election, it will come as surprise to your Lordships to know that an amending Act is to be introduced. I do not think it will even be a surprise to the Episcopal Bench or to His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is popularly supposed to be the godfather of the Education Act. I, of course, am quite unaware of what the amending Act will be. Perhaps I may be considered a little unwise, but I will venture to state my personal opinion at all events as to what one part of it should be. I feel that I cannot maintain silence on the subject of religious teaching In our schools, as I occupy a position in many great religious societies which would make my silence seem perhaps cowardly—at all events, it would be difficult to explain. No one who knows me will fancy for one moment that I am a secularist, but at the same time I feel—and feel deeply—that no system of National Education will ever commend itself to the vast mass of the people, belonging as many of them do to different sects and different denominations—no system will be considered satisfactory, if it is a State-paid system and a compulsory system, as long as any denominational religion is taught in the schools during school hours.

For myself, I think we who lay so much stress upon the religious teaching of children should be content that the simplest bible teaching should be given. I say the simplest, because I think there is a danger that the Bible might be considered by the children only as a lesson-book, to be thrown away as the other lesson-books are thrown away when the joyful moment of escape from school-life arrives. I hope that when the amending Act is brought before us some of the old passions will have passed away, and that the country will be able to give a calm and deliberate judgment on the matter. I am glad to say that one right step has already been taken by the new Minister for Education, for in the newspapers this morning it is announced that money will be forthcoming in order to give further aid to our secondary schools, of which they stand sadly in need, and also further aid in the building of training colleges for the teachers. On those subjects I imagine that your Lordships will be unanimous.

I will refer to only two other matters. The first is the subject of the equalisation of rates for London, of which, as a London landlord in the East End, I shall heartily approve; and the other the abolition of plural voting, which, after all, has been before the country for a great many years. I fought something like seven contested elections in eleven years, and know that that subject was always a very prominent one in my programme. When the time arrives I shall be able to give a fuller explanation, but I did come across what I considered to be gross unfairness as regards plural voting, and I think in these times plural voting should be considered as an anachronism and unfair and should be abolished. I am therefore glad to think His Majesty's Government are going to introduce a measure to abolish plural voting. These, with other reforms which will be referred to by my noble friend beside me in seconding the Address, will come before us in due time, and will, of course, meet with objection, and, I am afraid, a good deal of opposition. It would be affectation to pretend to think that these measures will receive the hearty approval of the majority of your Lordships. I regret that that is the case, but I understand it to be the duty, or, at all events, the practice of this House when Liberal Reform measures are brought before it, to put on one side as far as possible party and political opinions, and to give due weight to all the circumstances which have brought such measures into existence. My Lords, I think you will all agree with me that the general election has at all events taught us one great lesson, and that is that there has been a gradual increase, all the stronger because it has been gradual, of democratic feeling and progressive thought. The measures which will be brought before your Lordships this Session and in future Sessions will be the fruit of that feeling, and I trust that as time goes on and we have these measures in full detail before us, we shall be able not only to give a calm and impartial deliberation to them, but also our ultimate consent. I beg to move.

LORD HERSCHELL

My Lords, on rising to second the Address I must ask your Lordships to accord to me a full measure of that courteous indulgence which I understand it has ever been the custom to extend to those who rise to address this House for the first time. I hope your Lordships will allow me to say what gratification I have had at the honour which I know it to be of being selected to second the Address in reply to His Majesty's most gracious Speech. But before proceeding with my observations I hope your Lordships will permit me to say how much we feel the absence from our midst to-day of one well-known figure—I need hardly say I refer to Earl Spencer, whose ever-ready courtesy, quick sympathies, and many sterling qualities endear him alike to all, to his political opponents as well as to his political frieids. I myself feel, in a particular measure his absence, owing to the very great friendship which existed for so many years between the noble Earl and my father, and I know that your Lordships will all join with me in wishing him a speedy recovery.

I should like to associate myself with the noble Marquess whose speech we have just heard in his expressions of the deepest sympathy with Their Majesties the King and Queen in their overwhelming bereavement, and in doing so I am confident I voice the sentiments of every Member of your Lordships' House. Allusion is made in the gracious Speech to the visit of their Royal Highnesses the Prince and Princess of Wales to India. This visit cannot fail to be a source of gratification to all concerned, to ourselves and to our Eastern fellow subjects; it has been made the occasion of yet another display of the utmost loyalty and attachment to the Throne, and will serve as a further tie to strengthen that unanimity of feeling which does exist, and which it is so desirable should exist, between the peoples of India and the people of this country. There is, I suppose, no one who can fail to rejoice at the happy termination of the war between Russia and Japan—a war which one might, without exaggeration, characterise as the most portentous conflict that the world has ever seen, portentous not only in the valour displayed but also in the unprecedented loss of life on both sides; and I am sure your Lordships will agree that a debt of gratitude is owed by the whole civilised world to President Roosevelt, of the United States of America, for his good offices and timely assistance, which so materially contri- buted to the inception and ultimate success of the peace negotiations. The hand of friendship has been proffered and accepted by the two nations, and I trust I may be allowed to express the hope that now that the clouds of war have rolled away they may be on the eve of a new era of vigorous internal development, which will inevitably lead to an increase of material prosperity and happiness to both nations.

This leads me to the Agreement with Japan. The whole world can feel nothing but admiration for the way in which Japan has, in a period so brief as to be without parallel in history, attained the position among the nations of the world which she now occupies. Your Lordships will have noticed in the Gracious Speech that the Agreement entered into with Japan in January, 1902, has been prolonged and extended. This can be nothing but a source of satisfaction to all. The cordial feelings of goodwill which exist at present between the two countries and the various interests, commercial and otherwise, which affect ourselves, of the islands of the West and our allies of the islands of the East, have combined to make this Agreement particularly suitable; for surely, my Lords, the soundest basis of any Agreement, political or otherwise, is community of interests. I should like to express my conviction that there is nothing in this Agreement which could possibly, in any way, militate against those friendly relations which now exist, and which I am confident we shall ever strive to maintain in the future, between ourselves and Russia. Finally, my Lords, as to our part of the Agreement, I feel sure that we shall adhere strictly to all the engagements entered into, not only in the letter but also in the spirit of the Agreement, which is the maintenance of the peace of the whole world.

Your Lordships will have seen in the' gracious Speech that the dissolution of the union of Sweden and Norway has taken place. We cannot but rejoice that the difficulties which existed between these two peoples should have been settled in so peaceable a manner, and I know I am expressing the sentiments of all your Lordships when I say that we offer a humble and heartfelt wish that the reign of Norway's King and of the English Princess who is his Queen may be a long one, fraught with happiness for them and prosperity for the people over whom they have been called to rule.

I now come, my Lords, to the reference to Macedonia. This province has always presented innumerable difficulties in opposition to a satisfactory solution of the question as to what precisely is the best form of Government for its peculiar needs. The various warring elements, racial and religious, which exist among its curiously mixed population have ever been a series of stumbling-blocks in the way of reform. Pressure has repeatedly been brought to bear on the Turkish Government with a view to ameliorating the unhappy conditions which obtain in that province. In fact, efforts in this direction have been unceasing one might say ever since the time of the Berlin Treaty. Unfortunately, the procrastination of the Porte, assisted to a certain extent by the slow action of the European Concert, has up to the present practically left matters in statu quo; and, in spite of the assurances of goodwill of His Majesty the Sultan, and his doubtless beneficent intentions, the numerous steps which have been taken so far have resulted in comparatively little actual progress. It is therefore with feelings of particular thankfulness that we now learn that His Majesty the Sultan has definitely accepted an International Financial Commission, which I believe is already at work.

Your Lordships will also have learned from the gracious Speech that papers will be laid before Parliament dealing with Army Administration in India. When the present Government came into power the question of Army Administration in India was only partially settled, and it is satisfactory to know that every possible effort is being made to arrive at a happy solution of any difficulties which may exist. Allusion is made in the gracious Speech to the forthcoming Colonial Conference. I am sure your Lordships will agree with me that these Conferences are of the highest importance in that they afford an opportunity to us of the Mother Country of having laid before us the views on various subjects which are held by the people of the Colonies, and the interesting and instructive discussions which take place on the occasion of these conferences enable us on both sides to take a wider and at the same time a deeper and more intelligent view of questions which must of necessity to a large extent depend upon the diverse conditions, local and social, which affect, them in each particular case.

I now turn, my Lords, to a subject purely concerning our own country, one which has for some time past been very seriously exercising the minds of all those who have the real welfare of the country most at heart. I refer to the long-continued exodus of our rural population from their homesteads, and their migration to the towns. The effect of this has been twofold; in the first place, the agricultural districts have been practically depleted, and villages which, formerly contained a race of stalwart yeomen and healthy labourers do not now any longer afford sufficient attraction to the youth and are left to fall into gradual decay, inhabited only by the old and infirm. Farmers all over the country complain that it is impossible for them to find labourers. Apparently high wages (no consideration being given to the enhanced cost of living), the tawdry attractions and the fictitious brilliancy of the towns have drained our rural districts of their natural inhabitants.

This, my Lords, is the first cause of anxiety. I will now proceed to touch upon the second aspect of the question which is of no less grave import. The result of the constant stream of arrivals in the towns has been that terrible condition of overcrowding which is to be seen in all our great cities. These centres, already too densely populated, receive daily, fresh recruits from the country, for whom there is no space. The children of this particular section of the community come into the world and are brought up breathing tainted atmosphere in squalid courts, in strong contrast to the free and open-air existence which their parents enjoyed as children, and to which they have every right. The penalty which nature imposes upon all those who disregard her laws becomes shortly apparent in the ever-increasing number of stunted youths, with narrow chests and pallid faces, who testify in a manner all too striking to the inevitable physical deterioration which is going on, and which will continue among these people who are subject to the conditions to which I have alluded. I shall not dilate upon the moral side of the question, although this must appeal very strongly to those who are cognisant of what surroundings are most conducive to moral deterioration, or the reverse. It is, therefore, particularly gratifying to hear that inquiries are being instituted with a view to remedying this state of affairs.

Your Lordships will have noticed amongst the Bills mentioned in the gracious Speech one for regulating trade disputes. Some two years ago a judicial decision of this House came as a surprise to many persons, and a considerable amount of perturbation and dissatisfaction was caused by the discovery of the fact that what had hitherto been considered to be the law was now found not to be the law. It is, therefore, with pleasure that we hear that His Majesty's Government intend to take an early opportunity of considering this important question. For many years we have had in Parliament representatives of a certain political force whose number has been strongly augmented by the recent elections, and I cannot but feel that their knowledge and advice will be of the greatest possible use when two of the Bills mentioned in the gracious Speech—namely, the Workmen's Compensation Bill, and the Bill for amending the Unemployed Workmen Act—come up for discussion in another place.

I now come, my Lords, to the Bill for the amendment of the law regarding certain colonial marriages. I approach this subject with particular interest, because, if your Lordships will pardon the personal allusion, it is intimately connected with a question on which my father held very strong views, although I understand that his advocacy of it did not always meet with the approbation of a certain portion of your Lordships' House. Your Lordships are doubtless aware that there is a very grave feeling of dissatisfaction in certain colonies regarding the disabilities attaching in this country to marriages which, although perfectly legal in those colonies, are not regarded by the law in this country as precisely on a par in all respects with other marriages. I need hardly say that I allude to the case of a man who has married his deceased wife's sister. This marriage is strictly legal in the colonies, and, as such, carries with it all the conditions of a legal union. Should, however, the man come to live in this country, acquire property here, and subsequently die intestate, his children are regarded in this particular conjunction by the law as if they were illegitimate, and consequently they are incapable of inheriting property. I feel sure that any measure which aims at removing this disability and the inevitable stigma attached thereto cannot fail to commend itself to your Lordships' sense of justice. I will not detain your Lordships longer, and I have only to thank you most sincerely for the courtesy and patience with which you have listened to me. I beg to second the Address.

Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty thanking him for his gracious Speech from the Throne."—(The Marquess of Northampton.)

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

My Lords, it falls to my lot to be the first to congratulate the two noble Lords to whom we have just listened, on the manner in which they have performed the somewhat difficult task which has been allotted to them. The noble Marquess who spoke first addresses this House with an authority derived from varied experience. He is still remembered gratefully by those who served with him in the Diplomatic Service. He has occupied a seat in the House of Commons, and he has from time to time taken an honourable part in our debates, and besides that, being, as he is, a large landowner in this city, he has never allowed himself to forget that property has its responsibilities as well as its rights, and he has never failed to interest himself in all philanthropic objects directed to the improvement of the condition of the poor and suffering classes of the London population.

The noble seconder, so far as I am aware, has a better right to represent himself as a novice; but, although he addressed us with a modesty and self-restraint which, I am sure, gained all our sympathy, we could not detect any of the imperfections or deficiencies by which the oratory of beginners is sometimes characterised. We hope he will often take part in our discussions, and any contribution to our debates from the son of his father will be gratefully received by this House, where the late Lord Herschell's memory is held in such great respect.

My Lords, I am sure your Lordships will readily concur in all that fell from the two noble Lords in regard to the earlier paragraphs of the gracious Speech. This House will certainly not withhold its sympathy from the Sovereign of the country and his Consort in their mourning for the venerable Monarch who has lately been taken from them. The joys and sorrows of the Royal Family are our joys and sorrows, and we all of us deeply sympathise With Her Majesty in the bereavement which prevented her from standing by His Majesty's side this afternoon. With reference to the question of the Prince and Princess of Wales' visit to India, I think the noble Marquess who leads the House and the noble Earl who sits on his left (The Earl of Elgin) will not differ from me when I say that only those who have lived in India and mixed with the people of that country can appreciate the intense respect and devotion with which the Sovereign of the Empire and those who are closely connected with him are regarded by the people of India, without distinction of race or creed.

The noble Lord who seconded touched upon a personal topic which I am sure must be present to the minds of many of us—I mean the absence of Lord Spencer. I suppose that a year ago, if there was one anticipation which we all of us thought it possible to make, it Was that in the event of a change of Government we should find Lord Spencer acting as the new Leader of this House. No one could have been more preeminently fitted for that position. Lord Spencer's long experience in the House of Lords, the tact with which he has led the Opposition, the sincerity and straightforwardness of his character, combine to make us regard him as one, above all others, fit for that high position. We deeply regret that the state of his health should deprive him of that honour, and should deprive this House of his wise guidance at a time when perhaps it may be much required. I hope the noble Marquess Lord Ripon will not suppose that when I use these words I say anything derogatory to his fitness for the position. We regard him, if I may say so, us a veteran of whom this House is justly proud.

In the King's Speech I find with satisfaction reference made to the satisfactory character of our present arrangements with foreign Powers. But, before I pursue that subject, may I be permitted to say one word with regard to the terrible misfortune which has overtaken the Minister who is at present in charge of the foreign affairs of this country? None of the noble Marquess's colleagues assumed office with more general goodwill or support. I do not think any private sorrow has ever more deeply moved the public mind, and it is with no ordinary emotion that we offer to Sir Edward Grey our sympathy in the great trial which he has to bear.

It is deeply satisfactory to us that His Majesty should be able to tell us that his relations with foreign powers are friendly, because we cannot conceal from ourselves the fact that there are many quarters in which the political atmosphere is somewhat highly charged. The noble Marquess spoke in appropriate terms of the Conference now sitting at Algeciras. We must all join in His Majesty's hope that that Conference may be conducive to the maintenance of peace among all nations. Morocco has been for many years past the Alsatia of Northern Africa. It has been a country so misgoverned that we have been liable at any moment to find ourselves confronted by incidents likely to disturb the international peace. I earnestly trust that no international rivalries may be allowed to stand in the way of a durable settlement of these difficulties.

I venture to make one observation only, and it is this—that in cases of this kind one naturally looks with a good deal of misgiving to any attempt to obtain the better administration of a disorderly country by the establishment of international control. We have had not infrequent experience of attempts to set up such control, and they have not been encouraging. I suspect that the best hope of a satisfactory solution in such cases is to be found when, with the consent and goodwill of all the Powers interested, and with proper precautions for safeguarding their interests, a single Power, always assuming that such a Power is so situated as to be able efficiently to perform the task, can be induced to take upon itself an undivided responsibility for the maintenance of a better organised and better administered Government.

We must all of us have learned with concern that the union of the dual monarchy—a monarchy united to this country by so many historical ties and associations—could no longer be maintained. It was the universal desire of all of us that if there was to be a dissolution of the union, that dissolution should be effected with as little friction as possible and should leave behind it as few traces as possible of ill will. As one who had special opportunities of watching the process by which that dissolution was effected, I may perhaps be permitted to express my admiration at the tact and moderation which was exhibited by both the countries concerned in that transaction. It is earnestly to be hoped that the relations of the two kingdoms may be of such a kind as to enable them to maintain for the future the friendship and intimacy which it is clearly desirable should subsist between them, and that they should be of a kind which will enable this country to maintain with the Scandinavian Peninsula the friendly arrangements which have always united Great Britain with Sweden and Norway in the past. I need not say that the fact that the throne of Norway is to be occupied by a prince, who, by his marriage with, an English Princess has become a member of our. Royal Family, adds to our solicitude that this should be the case.

The paragraph in which His Majesty refers to Macedonia strikes, as might be expected, a note of anxiety. We have had from time to time frequent discussions in this House upon the subject of Macedonia, and I think that most of those who have taken part in those discussions have expressed their disappointment at the tardy progress which has been made in bringing about a better administration of that part of southeastern Europe. I do not know that if blame is to be imputed, that blame attaches to this country. I believe, on the contrary, that the history of the last few years will show that the British Government has consistently taken a leading part in pressing upon the other Powers the necessity of improving the administration in Macedonia. A long step was, I think, taken last year when, not without difficulty, the Turkish Government was induced to accept the appointment of a Commission to deal with the finances of Macedonia. We have always believed that without financial reform, reforms of any other character were not to be looked for, and I trust that the labours of the Commission may be productive of useful and permanent results. We may have, I dare say, before long important papers on this subject laid upon the table of the House.

May I say, speaking for those who sit beside me, that with regard to all questions of foreign affairs, although, the noble Marquess will find us anxious for information, he will never find us disposed to press for such information when it is undesirable in the public interest that it should be given? Looking back to my five years experience as the representative of the Foreign Office in this House, I have every reason to acknowledge the invariable consideration with which I was treated whenever questions of foreign policy came before your Lordships, and I feel quite sure I may promise reciprocity in that respect. It is all the easier for us to deal with questions of foreign policy on these lines, because we have been told that there is to be continuity of policy in foreign affairs and that we need not look forward to any sudden or precipitate reversal of the policy we ourselves have pursued during the last few years.

I cannot help expressing a wish that the same kind of continuity might be looked for in connection with other departments of Imperial policy. I wish we could look for the same kind of continuity of treatment in regard to colonial policy; but I am constrained to say that on that point I find a marked difference in the attitude of His Majesty's Government. One colonial problem in particular, I mean the problem of the introduction of Chinese labour into South Africa, seems to me, I am constrained to say, to have been treated not only on Party lines, but on the narrowest of Party lines. It has been so treated in the discussions which we have had in this House; it has been still more so treated throughout the recently concluded electoral campaign.

We have never contended that the introduction of Chinese labour into South Africa was not to be regarded as an experiment, and I will go further and say an experiment not unattended by a certain amount of risk; and we should have been the last people in the world to complain if the attitude of noble Lords opposite and their friends had been one of criticism and vigilance. But I think we have every reason to complain when we find that they have not scrupled throughout the discussions which have taken place in regard to this subject to fasten upon us the charge of having introduced into a part of the British Empire a system which they describe as one of slavery, and to impute to us that we have connived at various acts of cruelty and outrage which are said to have characterised the existence of the system of indentured Chinese labour in the Transvaal. All of us, I suppose, during the last few weeks, have had opportunities of reading the statements which have been made on this subject, and of seeing the placards which, apparently on the authority of the Party organisations, have been distributed broadcast throughout the country. It has gone as far as this, that in some parts of England wretches disguised as Chinamen, equipped with pigtails and loaded with manacles, have been paraded about the villages as illustrations of the result of the policy of the late Government.

We have a right to protest against treatment of that kind; and I venture to tell noble Lords opposite what, in my opinion, it was their duty to do if they really believed that these things were happening in South Africa. I think they should at once have instituted a full and searching inquiry into the conditions under which Chinamen were being employed, and into the particular acts of cruelty and oppression which were alleged against us. It is not too late to make such an inquiry now; we, I need not say, shall court it and receive it with approval. But what the Government have done is something quite different. They began by endeavouring to put a stop—making believe, I might almost say, to put a stop—to the further importation of Chinese coolies when a very little inquiry would have made them aware that, without illegality, it was impossible to terminate abruptly the arrival of these people. And, in the next place, they have announced that it is their intention to hand this question over entirely the to Transvaal Government.

Now, on the merits, I have no objection to allowing the Transvaal Government to deal with this question; but I. say that, if noble Lords opposite were really satisfied that the condition of things which existed amongst these coolies was a condition of slavery, they had no right to prolong that state of things. But not only have they tolerated its continuance, but they are actually, as we read in the gracious Speech from the Throne, prolonging the interregnum during which this state of things is to be continued, for the elections to the first Legislative Assembly, which were to have been held in the month of July, have been postponed, although forsooth,— It is not anticipated that the additional delay need extend beyond a few months. So that you may have several months during which this condition of slavery, with all the terrible incidents which are said to accompany it, is to be prolonged and perpetuated.

We learn that the Transvaal is to be given powers of responsible government. We should like very much to know, if we can be told, a little more about the form of that government. There have been disquieting rumours to the effect that the new electoral system is to be one differing in essential particulars from that to which we have given our approval, and that it will be a system which will have the effect, and. I presume, is intended, to transfer the predominance of power from the colonists of British blood to those of the Boer community. Now the electoral basis to which we had given our approval was determined after much discussion, after full consideration of recent colonial precedents, and after a debate in Parliament in which several Members of the present Government took part—a debate in the course of which the present Prime Minister expressed in so many words his approval of the system which we had adopted, I mean a system with an electoral basis founded upon voters and not upon population. This may be a false alarm, and if it is so, the sooner the report is contradicted the better, for it is one which, both in this country and in South Africa, has been received with feelings of great uneasiness.

I turn for a moment to the paragraph in which the gracious Speech deals with Irish affairs. I do not suppose that any paragraph will have been scanned with closer attention or more anxiety than that particular paragraph. Its language is somewhat remarkable. His Majesty's Government do not announce to us the introduction of a Measure, but they tell us that they have plans under consideration— For improving and effecting economies in the system of Government in Ireland and for introducing into it means for associating the people with the conduct of Irish affairs. We should certainly not grudge His Majesty's Government any length of time which may seem to them necessary for the full consideration of this most difficult subject; and, if they had told us that they had only lately assumed office and that they desired to look more fully into the matter, we should have quite understood their reasons for asking for delay. But their language is at once enigmatical and suggestive. We should like to know in what manner the people of Ireland are to be associated with the conduct of Irish affairs. The late Government passed a very far reaching Act of Parliament which certainly had the effect, not only of associating the people of Ireland with the conduct of Irish affairs, but of giving them a very large measure of control over those affairs. I observe that the noble Marquess, in the course of his speech, twice used the words "local affairs," and I presume that he is in the secret and knows what kind of affairs are contemplated. But we may be excused for reading this passage in a somewhat critical spirit, because it is impossible for us to dismiss wholly from our minds that remarkable speech delivered by the Prime Minister, soon after his assumption of office, in which he unfolded to a wondering public the scheme which is commonly spoken of as that of Home Rule by instalments. We should very much like to know whether this is merely what I might call a reasonable and legitimate development of local self-government, or whether the new "plan" represents the first of those instalments which Sir Henry Campbell Bannerman announced his intention or desire to provide for the benefit of the people of Ireland. The paragraph goes on to express His Majesty's desire that the Government of the country— In reliance upon the ordinary law, should be carried on, so far as existing circumstances permit, in a spirit regardful of the wishes and sentiments of the Irish people. I do not suppose that any of your Lordships would for a moment desire that the people of Ireland should be denied the advantage of living under the ordinary law, so long as the ordinary law suffices for the purpose of ensuring peace and good order in that country; but it is quite clear that a reservation of that kind is present to the mind of His Majesty's Government, and has prompted the comforting reservation embodied in the words— So far as existing circumstances permit. As to the expediency of governing Ireland in a spirit regardful of the wishes and sentiments of the Irish people, I believe that I only represent the views of the noble Lords behind me when I say that it is our great desire that the government of Ireland should be carried on in a sympathetic spirit and with due regard to the feelings of the people of the country; and I will undertake to say that there is no Chief Secretary whose name is more honoured in Ireland as that of an official who sought earnestly to have regard to the wishes and sentiments of the people than the late Prime Minister, Mr. Arthur Balfour.

I will say only one word more with regard to Ireland. I see no reference in the Speech to an Irish question which is one, I think, of extreme importance—I mean the question of land purchase. No measure of late years has been passed that is in closer accord with the wishes and sentiments of the Irish people; and I earnestly trust that His Majesty's Government will not allow any circumstances to interfere with the proper development, and the progress of that useful measure. We have heard with some slight alarm that during the last few days the proclamations applying certain provisions of the Crimes Act have been withrdawn from, I think, nineteen districts in different parts of Ireland. These provisions, as your Lordships are perhaps a ware, have reference to the use of special juries and the power of change of venue in certain circumstances. Now, if His Majesty's Government are able to tell us that the condition of these nineteen districts really has undergone a change, and that these precautionary measures, which, after all, do not interfere with the personal liberty of a single Irishman, are no longer necessary, we shall rejoice to hear that fact and we shall applaud the decision of Ministers. But we should like to know on what grounds this sudden and perhaps somewhat theatrical step has been taken.

My Lords, I will not say more than a word with regard to the promises of legislation contained in the gracious Speech. One measure will be awaited with the keenest expectation—I mean that which is to deal with the question of education. We have learned from the Minister in charge of that particular matter that the fundamental principles of the Act of 1902 are not likely to be disturbed. I rejoice to hear it; and I hope it is true that that great measure, dealing as it did more thoroughly than any of its predecessors with the question of co-ordinating education, and the position of the local authorities in regard to it, is not likely in its essential points to be disturbed.

The question that is to be dealt with is, of course, that of religious education, and there is no question which more deeply moves the convictions of the people of this country. I take it that the general feeling throughout the country is that that our children should be educated in principles of morality having behind them a higher sanction than can be derived from the inspiration of the schoolmaster or from the tenets of some Government Department. I think I am not Wrong in saying, too, that the feeling of the public generally is that so far as possible the wishes of the parents should be considered, and that they should be allowed to determine what form of religious education their children are to receive. But I admit that these are very general propositions, and it is only when you get to close quarters with this most difficult question that its really embarrassing character becomes fully apparent. We have experienced these difficulties, and we shall rejoice if noble Lords opposite are fortunate in surmounting them.

Of the other measures mentioned in the King's Speech I will not at present say anything except to observe that I recognise the importance of the paragraph in which it is said that inquiries are proceeding as to the means by which a larger number of the population may be attracted to and retained on the soil. We all of us admit the desirability of arriving at that end, and we shall be glad to co-operate in any attempt to do so. I take it that the inquiries referred to are those which are being conducted by a Committee appointed by the late President of the Agricultural Department. As to the other Bills, which I see number a dozen altogether, I will only say, echoing a wish which has been not infrequently expressed on this bench—the hope that some of them, at all events, will be introduced in your Lordships' House, and that those which are introduced elsewhere may, if possible, be brought to us at a time of the year which will enable us to deal with them. That is a demand which the Opposition are privileged to put forward, and I am not at all ashamed of echoing language which has fallen from the noble Marquess opposite on more than one occasion.

I will go a little further and say that at this moment, it is for obvious reasons, especially desirable that this House should be consulted in good time as to any important measure that may be contemplated. We are confronted with a rather exceptional state of things. His Majesty's Government in the other House have a majority which I may fairly describe as colossal. In this House, on the other hand, they are confronted, not perhaps by a very solid Opposition, but still by a large body of peers who may be expected to have views of their own and to desire ample opportunities of expressing them. I hope, therefore, that arrangements will be made to provide us with those opportunities. If His Majesty's Government will treat this House with the consideration which we have a right to claim, I do not think they need be at all afraid that we shall show a disposition to obstruct the deliberately expressed wish of the constituencies of this country. In my experience I can call to mind no case in which the House of Lords has set itself deliberately to thwart a conclusion arrived at by the people of this country upon full and sufficient premises; and I venture to predict that, if His Majesty's Government, strong as they are in numbers and in collective ability, will use their opportunities with prudence and with moderation, they may expect from us not obstruction, but much useful criticism and much cordial co-operation in the difficult task that lies before them.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of RIPON)

My Lords, I have first the agreeable duty of joining with my noble friend who has just sat down in offering hearty congratulations to my noble friends behind me on the manner in which they have discharged the duty entrusted to them. My noble friend who moved the Address has had wide experience in various parts of the public service, both in diplomacy and in the House of Commons, and he has shown us to-night in his admirable speech what good use he can make of the lessons which that experience has taught him; and I venture to say that we have seldom heard a more forcible speech in moving the Address than that which fell from the noble Marquess. There is a different.kind of interest in regard to the speech of the noble Lord who seconded the Address. It was an admirable speech for a first speech in this House. We are accustomed to find young men on both sides of the House come forward on occasions of this kind who are amply able to discharge the duty that is entrusted to them, and it is, I think, a source of great satisfaction that we should have found to-night in my noble friend the seconder so worthy a successor of that great lawyer whom noble Lords on both sides of the House esteemed and honoured.

We on this side of the House beg to tender our heartiest thanks to the noble Marquess who has just sat down for the kind manner in which he referred to that friend whom we so long have loved and honoured, and who we expected would on this occasion have occupied the place which I unworthily fill. My Lords, Lord Spencer is a man who has won for himself during a long series of years in this House, not only the affectionate regard of his followers, but, I venture to think, the respect and esteem of all men in this House; and it is indeed grievous to think that, struck down by an unexpected illness, he should be unable to come amongst us to-night to take that part—that honourable and distinguished part—in our discussions which he has so long taken. Occupying my present position I feel how difficult it will be for me to follow such a man as Lord Spencer, and I can only hope to accomplish the task which has been laid upon me by the aid and forbearance of my friends, and, if noble Lords opposite will pardon me for saying so, by the considerate indulgence of the House at large. Again we have to tender our thanks to the noble Marquess for the words he used in reference to the bereavement that has befallen Sir Edward Grey; and I believe he was right in saying that no misfortune to a public man, at all events for many years, has moved so deeply the sympathy of all who knew and esteemed him.

I now come to the remarks of my noble friend upon the gracious Speech from the Throne. It is needless for me to say how deeply we on this side of the House sympathise, in common with all of your Lordships, with the King and Queen in the great bereavement which has fallen upon them in the death of the King of Denmark. In that feeling we share the universal sentiment of the people of this country. The joys and sorrows of our Sovereign are shared by all his subjects; we all know the sterling affection with which the people of this country regard the Royal Family. I was not surprised at the words which fell from the noble Marquess with reference to the visit of the Prince and Princess of Wales to India. As he has reminded us, he knows that country well, as I also do, and he knows how deep is the respect and attachment which the people of India bear towards the Crown of this country. Certainly when I was in India there were few things which were remembered more vividly and with greater pleasure by the princes and peoples of that country than the visit of our present Sovereign when he was Prince of Wales. I have no doubt that feeling has continued, and that it will be strengthened and extended by the visit of their Royal Highnesses.

My noble friend alluded very briefly to the single line in the Speech which I refers to our relations with Foreign Powers and states that those relations continue to be friendly. As His Majesty's Government have been but a short time in office, it is due that I should say to my noble friend that a large share of that satisfactory state of things is due to his able conduct of the foreign affairs of this country. We all rejoice that the war between Russia and Japan has been brought to an end. That war was one of the most terrible with which the world has ever been visited; it was marked by gallantry on both sides, and it is indeed a subject of the highest satisfaction that it should, under an arrangement honourable to both parties, have been brought to a conclusion. We cannot be too thankful to that eminent ruler, the President of the United States, for the part which he took in bringing about that peace. It reflects great honour not upon President Roosevelt alone, but upon his great country. My noble friend will naturally be anxious to know what are the intentions of His Majesty's Government with regard to the recent Treaty between this country and Japan. I can assure him that we accept that Treaty in the spirit in which we believe it was made, and that it is our firm intention to carry out strictly and readily the obligations it imposes on us. We are proud of our connection with a gallant nation like Japan, and we shall certainly apply to that treaty arrangement that continuity of policy which has been already alluded to.

The noble Marquess next referred to the Conference which is going on at Algeciras. I am happy to say that that Conference is still continuing. Some persons have thought that it has been slow in its progress. Diplomatic conferences of that kind are not apt to proceed very rapidly, but I know nothing at the present time which should preclude us from hoping that it may be brought to a satisfactory conclusion. Reference has been made to what is called the Declaration agreed to by this country and France in regard to Egypt and to Morocco, and that Declaration requires us to afford full diplomatic support to France. To that arrangement we entirely adhere, and His Majesty's able representative at Algeciras is so instructed. We have, no doubt, my Lords, some national interests in respect to Morocco, but they are interests chiefly in regard to the maintenance of order vital to the success of commerce, and to the keeping of the open door; and no arrangements can be better calculated to promote that end than those which have passed between ourselves and France. Therefore we stand, so far as regards our diplomatic position, on the same footing as that laid down by my noble friend opposite.

One word with regard to the dissolution of the union between Norway and Sweden. It does seem to me that there are few instances in history in which a dissolution of a connection such as that has been made in so perfectly peaceful and reasonable a manner. The noble Marquess did not allude to the state of things in Crete, and I may therefore pass that subject by, merely saying that the statement contained in the Speech shows accurately the arrangements in that matter. It is very natural that my noble friend should feel great interest in the question of Macedonia. He has had the right object before him in the difficult task which he has endeavoured to perform, and his primary object has been to maintain the concert of Europe in this matter. He has succeeded in bringing the Sultan to agree to an international financial commission, and I am able to state that the Commission has had one or two meetings, and that, so far as it is possible to judge upon so slight an experience, it seems as if it will be likely to perform the task entrusted to it satisfactorily. I believe that Hilmi Pasha, the Turkish representative, is co-operating as was to be desired with his colleagues.

My noble friend asked a question about Papers respecting the arrangements for Army administration in India. My right hon. friend Mr. Morley has given most careful consideration to the state of things which was created by changes made last year in regard to that matter—changes not made, certainly according to my idea, with much skill—and he sent a Despatch to India on the 9th of this month conveying his views. That despatch is likely to arrive on the 25th or 26th, and as soon as it has reached India Papers will be laid on the Table. I think it will be agreed that the terms of the Despatch ought not to be made public till they are in the hands of the Indian Government. My noble friend commented unfavourably on the paragraph in the Speech with reference to the state of things in South Africa, and he referred to the question of Chinese labour. He seemed to take us to task for having taken steps in reference to the employment of Chinese labour in the mines as soon as we came into office. Now I think his comments arose from a feeling which apparently has existed among the Party opposite that the objections which we have steadily urged from the beginning to the employment of the Chinese coolies in South Africa under the terms upon which they are employed were taken up for some party purpose, and that this was a matter on which we had no very strong feeling. If they have entertained that opinion it is entirely erroneous. It is a question upon which we have felt very deeply; it is a question upon which those who I have the honour to represent in this House have strong and clear convictions; and it was the absolute duty of the Government, in view of the opinions which they had deliberately formed, to consider that question at the earliest possible moment after they came into office.

My noble friend made a great complaint of the language used at the late general election, and especially of certain pictorial representations which were cast abroad in the country in respect to the condition of the Chinese. We all know that at election times many things are done which had better not have been done. If there were any representations made, any pictures put forth, which led people to think that the Chinese in South Africa were constantly going about in manacles, it was wrong. I do not pretend to say that that is the state of affairs. But I should like to remind my noble friend opposite, when he makes the complaints about electioneering proceedings, that such proceedings are not always of the most gentle and courteous description. At least, they were not so always in my days. Perhaps Lord St. Aldwyn, whom I heartily welcome of this House, might state to us, as one of its most recent importations, whether electioneering manners have improved or not since then. I would ask my noble friend, when he makes this complaint, whether he recollects a case—I think it was in the county of Cambridge—where a Liberal candidate who had lost two sons fighting on the British side in the South African War was represented as engaged with President Kruger in pulling down the British standard. I think that case, and that treatment of a man in that condition who had made those sacrifices for his country and sustained that most grievous loss, may be paired off with half a dozen of the other examples brought forward by my noble friend opposite.

I do not think that the objections which we have entertained to the introduction of Chinese labour in the Transvaal are clearly understood by noble Lords opposite. The Chinese have been introduced under very special circumstances. The arrangements made for them, and with them, are not the arrangements which are generally made for the introduction of coolie labour. I admit that in one sense, and if you were compelled to have Chinese labour at all, you were obliged to make these arrangements, but they are arrangements which, in respect to the position of those men when they are not at work, are largely inconsistent with the condition of free men.

I have never spoken of the condition of these coolies as the condition of slaves. I described it once in this House—and I adhere to the epithet—as a condition of semi-slavery. That is exactly what it has been. We have been often told that the Chinese are well treated and well fed. I do not dispute that for a moment, but good food and good accommodation do not make free men. And when you lay down rules that these men are not to engage in certain employments—the number is twenty-nine, I believe—that people who assist them in any way inconsistent with the Ordinance are to be imprisoned, and that the Chinamen are not to be allowed to remain in the country but are to be removed by force as soon as their engagement is at an end, I say that you are making arrangements which a tall events in the opinion of His Majesty's Government, and I venture to believe in the opinion of all those whom they represent, ought not to be made. I know very well the dread of Chinese competition. That is the reason why these arrangements were made; but if the Chinamen are such dangerous competitors with the tradesmen and other portions of the population, as undoubtedly they are, then they are not fit people to be brought into a British Colony.

I was anxious to make these few remarks, because they represent the feeling strongly entertained by a very large portion, I believe a large majority, of the people of this country. What were we to do? We came into office, and found this thing as it was. We found these coolies at work in the mines. We did not think, however, great as might be our objection to this kind of arrangement, that it was possible for us, or that it would have been right, to take steps to prevent the continued employment of the Chinamen who were there at the time. But when we came to look into the matter we found that there were a very large number of Chinese coming over. The history of that matter is rather curious. I will not trouble your Lordships with it at this moment, but the number of licences applied for at a particular date last year sprung up in the most extraordinary manner, at the time, too, when Mr. Lyttelton was suggesting that perhaps no more would be required. We were advised that if those licences had been given between private persons it was quite clear they constituted binding contracts. Well, what did we do? We said we could not break the contracts; we would hold ourselves bound by them; and all the Chinese under those contracts are to come in. But would it not have been inconsistent with what we had said, and with our profound convictions, if we had allowed any more licences to be issued? We therefore stopped the further introduction of Chinese; but we said, in accordance with what I believe to be sound principle in this matter, that this is a question which must ultimately be decided by the people of the Transvaal themselves; and therefore we determined to take immediate steps to obtain that opinion in the most perfect manner and as quickly as possible. It may be argued—indeed I think it was argued by the noble Marquess—that we are to blame because we have not allowed Mr. Lyttelton's Constitution, if I may be permitted to call it that, to come into operation. Why have we not done that? There are several reasons.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

The noble Marquess will pardon me for interrupting him. I did not make that complaint. I suggested that there was a well-supported rumour that the new Constitution which His Majesty's Government were going to introduce was based upon an electoral system widely different from that which we had adopted.

THE MARQUESS OF BIPON

I am coming to that. I beg the noble Marquess's pardon for attributing the complaint to him, but the complaint has been made and I will answer it. All I desire to say on that point is this, that a Constitution of that kind, consisting of elective members in a very large majority having to deal with a nominated Executive over whom they have no control, has been proved to be a very bad form of Colonial government. The sort of despotism which Crown Colony government sometimes is may be necessary in certain cases, but I do not think this intermediate stage is, or will be, a method of advancing to responsible government. With respect to the question specially put by my noble friend, I have this to say. We are about to establish as speedily as we may in the Transvaal and ultimately in the Orange River Colony, responsible government properly so called.

It is a great and serious responsibility to construct a Constitution of that kind; and we have found ourselves obliged to take steps to obtain further information upon a variety of subjects before we can frame the Constitution which we shall ultimately establish. While we are doing that all these sorts of questions are open. The effect of the revocation of the letters patent with regard to Mr. Lyttelton's Constitution is entirely without prejudice to the fall consideration of the basis on which the Constitution will ultimately be framed. I express no opinion on that basis at all. I reserve for myself and for the Government the fullest freedom to deal with the matter as they may think best. With regard to the time at which we may be able to put forward this new Constitution I can give no more definite assurance than is contained in the Speech itself. No time ought to be lost about it. I quite admit that all persons interested in the Transvaal have a fair right to demand that we should bring this business to a conclusion as soon as we can; but I am sure your Lordships will agree that it is not a matter to be hurried, not a matter to be decided hastily, and that we are bound to proceed with due deliberation, due inquiry, and due communication with South Africa before arranging the basis on which this Constitution is to be framed. In the meanwhile, as I have told your Lordships, no further licenses are to be issued for the importation of coolies.

We desire to leave the question where, in my humble opinion, it ought to be left, to the people of the Transvaal themselves; and I believe there is no effectual means of ascertaining the opinion of any country except through the intermediary of what is called responsible government. I have a feeble belief in plebiscites. I believe that a freely elected Legislature, guided by responsible Ministers possessing its confidence, is the surest and best means by which the opinion of any country can be ascertained; and it is to such a body that we intend to leave the decision of this matter. It is hinted that we ought to have decided the question out and out for ourselves. I do not think that. I believe that there is no more difficult question in connection with the responsible Government of Colonies than that which relates to the management of native races, and I believe that the Colonial Secretary has no real effective means of controlling the management of these matters by Ministers in responsible Colonies. You can veto their Bills, but you cannot control their Executive action. The moment you attempted to do anything of the kind you would be involved in infinite difficulty. Therefore, it is from no wish to shift responsibility from ourselves, but from a desire to leave to the people of the Transvaal the decision of a great question deeply concerning the future interests of that country that the step referred to has been taken.

I need hardly say that we shall make very effort also to frame a Constitution for the Orange River Colony. I have never quite been able to understand why the late Government did not deal with the Orange River Colony at the same time as the Transvaal, but that is a question not worth discussing now. I have only one word to say about the Colonial Conference, and that is that it has been agreed with the Ministers of the various self-governing Colonies that a Conference shall be held next year—the late Government felt that it could not be held this year—and that it shall be conducted in the same manner and on the same principles as the Conferences which have preceded it; and I hope and believe we shall all derive great advantage from a Conference of that kind.

Now I come to the paragraph relating to Ireland. My noble friend opposite wants to know its meaning. He complains that it is indistinct. I can tell him this, that when we speak of improving and effecting economy in the system of government in Ireland, and introducing into it means for associating the people with the conduct of Irish affairs, we speak of matters of administration The noble Marquess alluded to the local government system which was established in Ireland by the late Government. It was a very useful step, a very good measure, and it has worked very well; but that is only a reason which should encourage us in proceeding, so far as matters of that kind are concerned, in the same direction. The present condition of the administrative government of Ireland has been criticised by many men. Most of those who have gone there—Sir West Ridgeway for instance—with very different views have come round to the belief that it is a very unsound system needing change; and it is with a view to rendering that system more suitable to the present conditions of the country that we contemplate this arrangement.

It is many years now—more than twenty years—since the Irish system of administration was denounced in the most vehement, and, as I at the time thought, exaggerated language by no less a person than Mr. Chamberlain. I know it is no use to recall Mr. Chamberlain's words in the past in reference to anything he may say or think now; but, at the same time, if your Lordships would turn bask to that speech, if it is still in print, you would see in what language he denounced the administrative arrangements for the government of Ireland, and especially the boards that exist there. Those boards require to be brought more fully under the control of the central administration itself. I believe it is almost universally admitted that Boards of this kind are not the best means of conducting the administration of Ireland, and we hope to be able to make important changes in that direction without unnecessary delay. My noble friend laid great stress on the words— So far as existing circumstance permit in reference to our desire to carry on the government of the country in reliance upon the ordinary law. Of one thing I am quite sure—namely, that if these words had been omitted from the paragraph, my noble friend would have complained of the omission. He now complains of their presence. I think they are wise and judicious words, and they have been introduced for very obvious reasons. My noble friend spoke of relying on the ordinary law. He admits—and I think all men must admit—that it is, as a rule, desirable in all countries to rely on the ordinary law where you can do so. We were advised by those responsible, who have the best means of knowing what is the present condition of Ireland, that the stop which has been taken in withdrawing the clauses of the Crimes Act which were in operation in certain counties in Ireland could be taken with safety, and that being so we were bound to withdraw those clause, and to rely on the ordinary law.

There are a good many people—and this is one of the dangers of having laws of this kind—who when they have got powers think they are bound to use them, and that if there is any little disturbance here or there it is a good thing to resort to these extreme powers. The late Count Cavour well said that any fool could govern in a state of siege. I have no doubt that in a certain sense you can govern with less trouble if you have these powers, but I venture to say that the sound principle for this country is to govern where you can and when you can without such powers, to rely, wherever possible, on the ordinary law. That is certainly the view which His Majesty's Government take of the matter; and in accordance with that view, and upon the advice which has been tendered them, they have withdrawn those special powers which have been but rarely used in most parts of the country where they have been in force during recent years.

My noble friend then referred to the paragraph relating to the agricultural districts of the country. I have no comment to make on what my noble friend said with regard to that. The Committee alluded to is the one which was established by His Majesty's late Government. We propose to await the Report of that Committee, and then we shall see what steps it is desirable to take. I should think that it would be generally admitted that the operation of the present Small Holdings Acts has been very slight and not at all satisfactory, and that a change—I should think it would be a large change—in regard to that matter has become very necessary in order to meet admitted evils.

With reference to the education question, I am not in a position to tell the House what will be the provisions of the Bill. I can only say that the subject is receiving the closest attention of His Majesty's Government. I think it must be admitted, especially looking at the result of the late elections, that the present Act cannot stand as it is. It has produced great dissatisfaction in certain quarters. You have Wales in arms against it. If my noble friend lived, as I do, in the West Riding of Yorkshire he would know the feeling there. It is impossible to leave the Act as it now stands. In the interest of every kind of school you cannot let it remain. The late Government found it necessary two years ago to introduce a special Act for enforcing the existing law. If you look at the returns of the general election in Wales you will see what is the opinion of that part of the country on the question. All I can say now is this, that the necessity of change is great, urgent, and, I believe I may say, admitted, and I hope and believe that when the proposals of His Majesty's Government come before this and the other House of Parliament, they will meet, from all those who are interested in the question, with fair and careful consideration in the hope of some satisfactory settlement being arrived at and one which can stand. For my own part I never had any faith in the Act of 1902. I never took any part in the proceedings in regard to it. I always believed that it would come to grief, but it has come to a great deal more grief than I ever expected.

My noble friend spoke of the necessity of giving your Lordships ample time to discuss measures. Noble Lords opposite had an experience last year, which they can hardly have forgotten, of the difficulty of getting Bills up to this House. The Aliens Bill, an important measure, was forced through this House in a most marvellous manner, for the Government did not even venture to move their own drafting Amendments for fear of the Bill going back again to the House of Commons. The Unemployed Bill, again, came up so late, that, though it had had struck out of it its most important clause, it was yet considered necessary to pass it through this House with what was practically the closure. Therefore I cannot undertake to make any promise whatever with respect to that matter. I wish to be frank with the House, and I make no promise, but being concerned for the interests and dignity of this House, I shall do what I can to take the Bills up quickly; but I am powerless; your Lordships are powerless. I tried to water down the optimism of my friend Lord Spencer last year. I am too old to make promises of a kind which during a long life I have seen broken so very frequently.

I think I have now touched on all the points mentioned by the noble Marquess except one—I refer to the statement which he made, and which I hail with satisfaction, as to the spirit in which, under his guidance, he hoped the Opposition would deal with the measures of His Majesty's Government. I have had too long an experience of the moderation, and the skill of my noble friend who leads the Opposition not to have expected that that would be the spirit in which he would approach the matter, and I am glad that though he has a giant's power he does not seem inclined to use it like a giant. The circumstances are peculiar. There is an overwhelming majority on one side in the other House and an equally overwhelming majority on the opposite side in this House. That is a state of things which calls for all possible consideration and skill in those who have to deal with these questions in either House. The responsibility is great, and I believe, certainly so far as my noble friend is concerned, that he feels it as much as I do myself. The late general election returned, as the noble Marquess, said, a strong, I might almost say an overwhelming, majority in favour of one Party and one class of opinion. That has been brought about in many ways and for many reasons. I will not enter into them now; but this at least, my Lords, I feel bound to say, that the first and plainest lesson of that Election is that the people of the United Kingdom, noting those points which are referred to in the course of the King's Speech— That the imports and exports of the country continue to show a steady and accelerating increase, and, together with the growing activity of trade at home, indicate that the industries of my people are, in general, in a sound and progressive condition. —noting these points and laying them to heart, are determined not to allow to be weakened or undermined the wise fiscal policy which for two generations has secured to them the rich enjoyment of the blessings of Free Trade.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I do not intend at this hour to trouble your Lordships with any long observations, and I certainly shall not be tempted by the closing remarks of the noble Marquess to enter into the subject of fiscal policy. I rise really to ask a question, and to make one comment. The question has reference to the Irish paragraph in the gracious Speech from the Throne. I do not think the noble Marquess, in replying to my noble friend, realised the question which my noble friend put to him as to the peculiarity of the language in which that paragraph is expressed. What is intended? What are these plans? Do they differ from measures? Are they to be submitted to the judgment of Parliament?

THE MARQUESS OF RIPON

No.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I understand the noble Marquess to say No.

THE MARQUESS OF RIPON

I did not intend that as an answer.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

Then I will put the question again. Are these plans to be submitted to the judgment of Parliament?

THE MARQUESS OF RIPON

They are still under consideration.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I would like to press the noble Marquess to tell us what form of consideration these plans are receiving. Is it con- sideration within the bosom of the Cabinet, or is a Departmental Committee considering the matter? Are we to look for the appointment of a Royal Commission, or in what form are these plans for improving the government of Ireland to be effected? Lastly, intimately bound up with the other point I have raised, I should like to ask the Government when we may expect that these plans will be laid before the country and Parliament, when these considerations will reach their conclusion. I have known Governments by referring matters for consideration postpone dealing with them for a very long period; and it may be that this paragraph is a mere device to keep the Irish supporters of His Majesty's Government in another place quiet, for a Session at least, whilst the consideration is taking place. If the noble Marquess or one of his colleagues could throw a little more light upon this we should be grateful. Then I have a comment to make. The noble Marquess spoke in a jocular vein of the kind of things which take place at election times, and said that when he stood for Parliament very wicked things used to be done. I am very sorry to hear it, but I am afraid that we, on this side of your Lordships' House are not able to treat this particular matter to which my noble friend referred in the light fashion which characterised the answer of the noble Marquess. It is not a question of some unworthy paragraph or some unfair charge made on the hustings. If that had been the whole matter, the author of any such utterances would have reason to be ashamed of himself; but no great harm would have been done. The charge that we bring against the supporters of His Majesty's Government in the country and in another place is this, that they obtained the verdict of the country upon a false charge; that they put forward that which they knew to be untrue, and that upon that the verdict of the country Was given. Do they believe in this charge of slavery? Not a bit of it. The noble Marquess, speaking as the Leader of your Lordships' House and as the representative of the Government here, said— I have never made this charge of slavery. Yes; but the supporters of the noble Marquess have, and the noble Marquess would not be sitting in that place, perhaps, to-night if it had not been for this charge. If the noble Marquess does not believe in the charge of slavery, does he—

THE MARQUESS OF RIPON

I did not say what I believed on the question generally. I only stated that I had not said the conditions Were those of slavery.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

But I daresay the noble Marquess says what he believes. If the noble Marquess and his friends do not believe these charges of slavery and cruelty, then they ought to be heartily ashamed of the conduct of their supporters on the hustings during the general elections. A belated denial of the authenticity of these placards—a denial which, I believe, came out just two days before the end of the general election—is not a sufficient answer. This denial and refusal to accept responsibility, to be effective, ought to have been made much earlier. I rose only to make these two observations, and to ask the question which I have put to the noble Marquess.

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl of CREWE)

My Lords, it is, I think, a somewhat new experience, on the particular occasion of the opening of Parliament, that the debate should be prolonged beyond the speeches of the Mover and Seconder and that of the two Leaders; but I make no complaint whatever. On the contrary, it has frequently seemed to me that the practice of closing the debate in such a summary manner as has often been the case has its unfortunate side; and if, when I have sat down, any noble Lord likes to move the adjournment of the debate or proceed further with it this evening, I shall make no complaint, although I notice that we are approaching the time when your Lordships' House usually adjourns. I now come to the two matters raised by the noble Marquess. I shall not attempt to imitate him in the tone in which he addressed your Lordships at this very early stage of the Session. I am bound to say that the manner in which the noble Marquess has addressed himself to us who sit on this bench and noble Lords behind does not hold out to my mind hope of the entire fulfilment of that pledge of fair treatment from the majority which we received, and expected to receive, from the noble Marquess who leads the Opposition. I hope the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition will keep an eye on the other noble Marquess his colleague, and endeavour to exercise a moderating influence on the tone in which he addresses your Lordships. With regard to the Chinese labour question, which is the one upon which the noble Marquess spoke with most vehemence, I also, like my noble friend behind me, have never used the word "slavery" in connection with the importation of Chinese coolies into South Africa, because I do not regard it as an accurate term, and I do not suppose it is regarded as a term of art even by those who have used it. It has been regarded generally as a descriptive term. Perhaps I might be allowed to quote an analogy to your Lordships. I have often noted, in speeches made by noble Lords in this House, and by their supporters in the country, that when various provisions in connection with taxation have been brought in by Liberal Governments they have been described as "robbery." I do not suppose it would be contended that "robbery" was a technically correct term to apply. The term "slavery" was used in the same sense, as a term of general description. When people speak of Chinese labour as "slavery" they do not speak of it as being technically slavery. The term has been used as a general description of a system of labour which certainly cannot be described as free.

THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH

Does the noble Earl repudiate the word "slavery" on behalf of himself only or on the part of the whole of his colleagues?

THE EARL OF CREWE

I do not quite follow the noble Duke's meaning in asking that question. I have no doubt there are a considerable number of our supporters in the country who do regard this system as being essentially slavery, but I do not hold that view myself. I might, however, point out that it is no thanks to the former Government of the Transvaal, and not very much thanks to noble Lords opposite or to the late Government, that a provision was not included in the Ordinance which the Chinese Minister, when applied to on the subject, said in his opinion constituted what was equivalent to slavery. It was only on the representation of the Chinese Minister that that provision was omitted, and therefore I am bound to say that the indignation on the part of noble Lords opposite seems somewhat excessive. I do not pretend to be an authority on what happens at election times, but it is very common for exaggerated phrases and terms to be used. Those terms we, in this more serene atmosphere, would be sorry to use ourselves, and we are willing to express regret that they should be used. But when the noble Marquess accuses us of having got into office by statements which we knew to be untrue, I beg to protest very strongly indeed against that language. I have been a Member of your Lordships' House for twenty years, and I have never before heard such a charge made by one Member of the House against another Member or other Members of the House. I hope that, upon reflection, the noble Marquess will see the propriety and decency of withdrawing it. I am very sorry I cannot give the noble Marquess the information he desires with regard to Ireland. The whole question is under consideration, and that consideration has not yet proceeded to anything like an advanced stage. I am not even in a position to tell the noble Marquess how soon we shall be able to give any information on the subject.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

Perhaps your Lordships will permit me to say that I never for a moment desired to impute that the noble Lords opposite had said what was not true. That would have been a very foolish observation, and a most improper one. But I do adhere to what I said, that their friends in another place, and their supporters in the country, did allow charges to be made that were untrue.

On Question, agreed to nemine dissentiente, and ordered to be presented to His Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.