HL Deb 07 March 1905 vol 142 cc532-51
*THE EARL OF LYTTON,

who had given notice—"To call attention to the scheme at present under the consideration of the India Office for the removal of the Forest Department, now at Coopers Hill, to the University of Oxford; and to move to resolve, 'That, in the opinion of the House, the Indian Forest Service should be open to all the Universities of the United Kingdom,'" said: My Lords, although the subject which I am raising this afternoon has not as yet been brought very prominently before the public, it is, nevertheless, a matter involving a Very important principle, and one which is vital to the interests of all the Universities in this country. That principle, my Lords, is this, whether the right of admission to an important branch of the public service shall be confined to one University, that University endowed out of public funds for the purpose, or whether, as has always been the case in other branches of the public service up to now, the service shall be thrown open to candidates of all Universities alike on equal terms.

I think it would be best if I at once explain to your Lordships the proposals which are at present under the consideration of the India Office, and which involve the endowment of a school of forestry at Oxford to the exclusion of all other educational establishments, and, having done that, indicate an alternative scheme under which fairer terms would be given to all Universities alike. The Royal Indian Engineering College at Coopers Hill is, as your Lordships are probably aware, shortly to be abolished. The matter, therefore, which the Indian Council has to consider is, What is to be done with the forestry school at present carried on there? The proposals they have made are, in the first place, to transfer the forestry school from Coopers Hill to Oxford, and, out of funds provided by the Indian Government, provide there the necessary laboratory accommodation and establish and maintain a forest garden. It is further suggested that an examination should be held of all students at the end of their first year at the University—an examination which, presumably, will be of a very elementary kind, and that those who have qualified shall then be transferred to Oxford, where they will undergo, in the laboratories, the necessary scientific education which they require, ending up with a course of practical forestry in one of the scientifically-managed forests of France or Germany.

As soon as these proposals came to be known they aroused a good deal of hostility on the part of the authorities of other Universities, who believed that they would be shut out altogether from providing candidates for the India and Colonial Forest Service. I may say here that the Colonial Forest Service is equal in importance in the minds of those who have considered this question to that of the Forest Service of India, because the Colonial Forest Service at this moment is a large and growing one, and one which will have a very great deal of importance in the future. It is not, therefore, merely a matter of the ten students or so who now present themselves for the Indian Forest Service, but we must also consider those who may present themselves in the future for both the Colonial and Indian Forest Services. The protest was put forward most emphatically by the authorities of Cambridge University. Letters were exchanged between those authorities and the Secretary of State, and a deputation waited on the Secretary of State in order to set forth some of the objections which were felt to the proposals of the India Office. In answer to those objections the Secretary of State said "that it was considered essential that the Professor and the Assistant Professor of Forestry who have hitherto been entrusted with the training of forest students at Coopers Hill should be placed in charge of the training which probationers will in future undergo at the University, and in these circumstances it was inevitable that one University, and not more than one, should be selected for the purpose of affording the necessary education.

Now, my Lords, in that last sentence is contained the whole matter at issue—namely, whether or not it really is essential that the necessary training for the Forest Service should be confined to one University, and to one alone. Obviously this is not the place in which to discuss the relative educational merits of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, nor indeed their relative facilities for such training as would be required for this service. Reasons have been put forward by the authorities at Cambridge for preferring their own University in this matter—reasons which have a great deal to be said in their favour—and I may also point out that two Departmental Committees which have been appointed to inquire into the whole matter have reported in favour of Cambridge rather than of Oxford. But all these are matters which, of course, have been before the Indian Council, and have doubtless been taken into consideration by them. I do not stand here as the champion of Cambridge as against Oxford; I do not desire to challenge a division between those of your Lordships who belong to the University of Cambridge and those who belong to the University of Oxford. The protest which I enter is not directed against the selection of Oxford University, but to the selection of any one establishment to the exclusion of all others, and to the granting to that one establishment of a monopoly of admission into an important branch of the public service. That, in main outline, is the scheme which has been put forward by the India Office—a scheme which, as I have shown, leads to exclusions and limitations of rather an objectionable kind.

The other alternative which has been suggested has none of these objections, and is an alternative which involves free and open competition from all educational establishments alike. It is that, in the first place, students should be free to choose their own University; that, when there, instead of under-going an examination at the end of their first year, they should go through the usual three years University course and take their degree at the end of that period; and that, having taken their degree, they should then undergo an examination of a much more important kind, and should finish up, as in the case of the proposals of the India Office, by an eighteen months or two years course of practical forestry in one of the important Continental forests. By this scheme the public money from the Indian Revenue would not be spent at any one institution. It would go to providing an adequate training staff for carrying out that final two years course in forests abroad; and I think it will be admitted that that course of practical forestry in the Continental forests will be by far the most important period in the whole training.

We, in this country, have not got forests in which the science, of forestry is carried out on anything like the same scientific scale that it is abroad, and as regards the proximity of the two great Universities to any particular forest, I think the one stands in very much the same relation as the other. There are no important forests easily accessible to either University. There are, however, woods which have been placed at the disposal of the University authorities, and which would be accessible to a certain extent while the scientific training was going on to both Universities alike. But the point is that it is the final course which will be the most important, and that course could be entrusted to the present Professor and Assistant Professor of Forestry now at Coopers Hill, to be carried out under their supervision. I do not intend to enter into the details of either of these schemes or to dwell on their relative merits from an educational point of view, through I think I am right in saying that all existing higher grade public services are at this moment filled by open competition from those who have gone through their complete University training and taken their degree. Therefore, if these proposals are insisted upon, this will be the first and only branch of the public service in which men will be taken after one year at the University or, in other words, almost directly after they have left school. The details, of course, must be settled by some competent body, and I only mention this alternative proposal on the present occasion in order to show that it is quite possible to devise a scheme which will be more in the interest of the service itself than one confined to a University which can in no sense be said to have at this moment a large or important scientific school, and which, apart from the considerations of the service, will be very much fairer to all the Universities in the United Kingdom.

That is the case which I desire to lay before your Lordships, and I would urge upon the noble Marquess the Undersecretary of State for India the importance of not coming to any hasty decision on this matter. I would ask him whether, in view of the considerable resentment which the proposals of the India Office have created, it would not be possible to submit the whole matter to an independent expert Committee—a Committee, that is to say, which would be composed of men of science of both Universities, or of all Universities in the country, as well as of officials of the India Office, with a view to coming to some more equitable arrangement. I should also like to lay stress upon this one point, that if any of the revenues of India are spent in providing scientific laboratories at Oxford, or at any other institution, whether for one, two, or three years, the very fact of public money being so spent would necessarily tend to render such a settlement of a permanent kind. The college at Coopers Hill will not be closed until July of next year; it does, therefore, seem that there is no immediate need for settling this question, and that it would be quite possible to postpone the decision. I would urge, further, that no public money should be spent, either at Oxford or anywhere else, pending the consideration of the matter by, and decision of, such a Committee if the Government see fit to appoint one.

I have not waited for the final decision of the Council of India upon this matter, because I felt it was of the utmost importance that some public expression should be made of the strong resentment and hostility that is felt to their proposal. If the noble Duke the Chancellor of the University of Cambridge, the Duke of Devonshire, had been here this evening he would have put the case very much more forcibly than I have been able to do, and for that reason I very much regret his absence. In conclusion, I would respectfully assure the noble Marquess who will probably reply on behalf of His Majesty's Government that the feeling of hostility to these proposals is not confined to Cambridge but is shared by representatives of every University in the country, and that it is a very strong feeling. If the noble Marquess can give me any assurance that this matter will be postponed, and that a full inquiry will be held into it. I need hardly say I shall be entirely satisfied. If, however, he is unable to give me some assurance of this kind the feeling is likely to increase and is sure to find forcible expression. Whatever opportunities are afforded for the discussion of this matter in Parliament will be used to the full, and I feel convinced that when once the facts of the case have been put before it, Parliament will refuse to sanction a scheme which is so unprecedented in its character, and which in its operation will be so manifestly unfair.

Moved to resolve, "That, in the opinion of the House, the Indian Forest Service should be open to all the Universities of the United Kingdom."—(The Earl of Lytton.)

LORD THRING

My Lords, I wish to say a few words on this subject. The proceedings at the India Office with respect to Coopers Hill College have been of a most extraordinary character. I happen to live near the college, and therefore have known everything that has been going on there for years. I admit that years ago the college required some improvement in its management. This improvement was effected, and year after year the college was praised by those who visited it and was lauded as being one of the most important institutions for supporting the Indian Empire. A great sum of money has been spent by the Government, on improving its laboratories, and no human being can deny that it is extremely well managed and that everything in the college is satisfactory. Yet at this moment the India Office propose to abolish it and transmit the Forestry Department to the University of Oxford. It is absurd to say that the change of locality will improve, the opportunities of forest education; indeed, there are less opportunities in the neighbourhood of Oxford than in the neighbourhood of Coopers Hill. Coopers Hill College is now at the very highest pitch of discipline and management, and, if it be possible, I trust that a Committee may be formed to again consider whether it would not, be, to the advantage of this country, if we are to have a college at all for forestry, that it should remain at Coopers Hill. Why on earth we should remove the Forest Department from a college which is extremely well adapted for it to the University of Oxford I fail to understand, and I hope the matter will be further considered.

*THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Marquess of BATH)

My Lords, the subject of the Motion which my noble friend has put upon the Paper is one with regard to which I am regretfully aware there is a good deal of feeling, and I cannot help thinking that there is also a good deal of misapprehension both as to the reasons which influenced the Secretary of State in Council in formulating the scheme now under discussion in your Lordship's House and as to the results which will ensue from it. The noble Lord who spoke last alluded to the decision which has been arrived at to close Coopers Hill College at a certain date. I need not trouble the House this evening, for the matter is well within your Lordships' knowledge, with the reasons for the original establishment of this institution, but I will state, shortly, the principal and guiding reason which, I believe, influenced the authorities in coming to their present decision.

We found that there had grown up throughout the United Kingdom a number of excellent institutions which were fully capable of carrying on that engineering instruction which it had been the object of the founders of Coopers Hill to afford, and whose diplomas and degrees the Indian Government were prepared to accept. Now, my Lords, that affected the very large majority of the men who were educated at Coopers Hill. I must further remind the House that the establishment of a forestry school at that college was no part of the original scheme. At first our forestry students were educated entirely abroad, at the schools in Germany and at the French school at Nancy. For certain reasons it was found that that system did not work well, and at that time it happened that there were vacancies in the accommodation at what was known, more correctly, as the Royal Indian Engineering College, of which advantage was taken, and the forestry school was, therefore, established there. That was about the year 1885. When the decision was arrived at, not long ago, to close Coopers Hill, the case was very different with regard to the forestry students from what it was with regard to the rest. We found, as my noble friend has very truly said, that there was no organisation in the United Kingdom capable of providing the necessary instruction in forestry for our candidates for that department in India, and, unless we were prepared to revert to the old foreign system, which, in our opinion, had proved unsatisfactory, it was necessary to provide for a continuance of this school in its entirety at some other place.

I should like to emphasise that the scheme which is now under discussion is, and has always been intended to be, of a temporary nature. There were several considerations which influenced the Secretary of State in Council in coming to a decision, and, perhaps, I shall not be wrong in reminding your Lordships that in a matter such as this, where expenditure of Indian Revenue is concerned, the Secretary of State is powerless unless he carries with him the consent of the majority of his council. In this matter the Secretary of State was guided by the very strong representations that were made to him by the experts who were consulted. They represented that the number of men engaged in the study of forestry was very small; there are only ten a year, or, in other words, only twenty under training in this country at one time. It was considered most necessary that they should continue to be educated all together in one place, and should receive their instruction, owing to the peculiar nature of that instruction, from their own teachers, who are themselves men of great experience in Indian forestry.

And, my Lords, there was a fourth consideration, which I do not think was an unimportant one. It was felt that as the change was to be made it was most desirable, if possible, that a residential University should be found—a University which provides rooms and disciplinary supervision for its students, and where they could be brought into contact with their contemporaries who were at the same time studying for other professions and other walks of life. It was also felt that another advantage in this suggestion would be that the forestry students would obtain the benefit of instruction in the ancillary sciences, and that they would also have the opportunity of obtaining University degrees or diplomas. I had hoped that the principle upon which the Secretary of State had worked would have met with general approbation from what, I am bound to confess, seems to me its very great advantages.

The Secretary of State in coming to this decision had in consequence to consider the question as to where this instruction should be carried on. Now, I venture to suggest that if the residential advantages of a University and the supplementary teaching to be obtained there had not been considered so important, if the school had been established, say, at Reading or at Abingdon, or had been continued at Coopers Hill, no one would have complained, and no one would have had the right to complain; but in searching for a University of this character, and one not too far from London, the choice naturally lay between the two great Universities whose names are familiar to your Lordships. May I be permitted to say that throughout the whole of the conferences and negotiations that have taken place there has been no idea in the minds of the Indian authorities of preferring one University as against another; so much so, that attention was first drawn some two years ago, I think, to Cambridge as likely to be most suitable, and, indeed, the Committee of 1903 actually recommended the University of Cambridge. But the experts who have advised us include such men as Sir Dietrich Brandis, who was the organiser and founder of the Indian Forestry School; Dr. Schlich, the head of Coopers Hill Forestry School, and Sir John Ottley, the president of the college; and I venture to suggest that recommendations coming from such gentlemen are worthy of weighty consideration in your Lordships' House.

It was strongly urged upon the authorities at the India Office that practical teaching and visits to existing woods must go hand in hand with the theoretical instruction, and while the experts were satisfied—and I do not mind acknowledging it myself, as an Oxford man—that the teaching of science at Cambridge is more advanced than it is at the sister University, they represented most strongly that the standard required by Oxford was amply sufficient for the purposes of Indian forestry, and that, in addition, the situation of Oxford with regard to neighbouring woods and forests far outweighed the natural advantages of the other University. I do not want to labour the point, but I would remind the House that the Cambridge authorities themselves recognised at one time that it was scarcely practicable to place at Cambridge a forest school, which ought to be in or near woods, as Cambridge was so unfavourably situated for that purpose.

There is another misapprehension to which I would like to draw your Lordships' attention. There seems to be a general idea that admission into the forestry school, as it is proposed, will be of a close nature. We propose to transfer the forestry school, exactly as it exists at present at Coopers Hill, to the University of Oxford. The competition will be just as open as hitherto, and the examinations will be carried out by the Civil Service Commissioners. The one thing that we require is that these men, when they have been selected, shall continue their training at this University for two years, and spend the last year of their training in Germany. My noble friend urged in his alternative scheme, as I understood it, that the students should be allowed to settle where they liked throughout the educational centres of the United Kingdom, and that they should go for their practical course at the end of their career, as now, abroad. I have already mentioned to the House the objection which our experts entertained to that proposal. They considered it absolutely necessary that from the beginning the practical side, in fact what I may call the nature-study side, of the training should go pari passu with the theoretical and scientific teaching. It is of small comfort, perhaps, but I can assure my noble friend and those who think with him that so far from the decision being in any way the fault of Cambridge University, it is solely and entirely her misfortune that she is not better situated for the practical study of forestry. I would further venture to remind your Lordships that Cambridge University is not hurt by the proposal which is being put forward by the Indian Office. It is true that by this decision Oxford may be benefited to the extent of ten men a year for two years, but, as I have said, we had no idea in our minds of favouring that University at the expense of another.

My noble friend alluded also to the question of endowment. The proposal is to transfer the school bodily, teachers and all, to Oxford. The Indian Government will continue as before to pay those teachers, and there is a small contribution that will be made to one professorship in recognition of the fact that on the scientific side forestry students will receive instruction from the University authorities. But I desire again to emphasise the fact that this is merely a temporary measure; and I cannot help feeling that my noble friend was under some slight misapprehension when he said there was no precedent for such a course; for in the case of the Indian Civil Service, probationers pursue their studies at certain Universities, and those Universities receive grants or endowments from Indian revenues for services rendered.

THE EARL OF LYTTON

A number of Universities, not one University only.

THE MARQUESS OF BATH

Yes. Oxford, Cambridge, London, and Dublin, but not all Universities. That, my Lords, is a limited form of endowment, and if there is any objection to the course we now propose, it might equally be taken in the case of the Indian Civil Service probationers by the universities left out in the cold. I can undertake that the revenues of India will not be spent upon a permanent establishment at Oxford or anywhere else until the matter has been fully considered in the light of the experience that we shall gain and with the advice of the best opinion we can get. And if it will meet in any way the objections that are felt to this scheme, I can undertake that an inquiry, which shall include outside authorities, will be held before the close of the experimental term to consider and report on our experiment. If it is considered best, we are prepared to reduce the experimental term from five years to three, but I am afraid that we cannot with advantage to the experiment reduce it below that number of years. If you adopt my noble friend's suggestion you cannot stop at these two Universities. You must extend the residential permission to all the principal teaching centres of the United Kingdom, and, in view of the experience we have had at Coopers Hill, wherever two or three students, indeed, wherever one student, may be settled, you will have to provide him with his own teacher of Indian experience, at, I need not point out to your Lordship, considerable expense to the revenues of India.

There are constant applications made to India from the Colonies for forest officers—applications which are satisfied so far as it lies in her power. It is not a pleasant admission to make that there exists, at the present time, no centre in this country from which such officers can be drawn. I cannot help expressing the hope that the interest which has been aroused on this question and the debate which has taken place in your Lordships' House will result in the establishment of institutions whose teaching in forestry will be of so efficient a nature that it will be possible in the near future to accept their degrees and diplomas. I am convinced that in such a movement, if it does take place, the great sister University will take, as she always has done in the past, a leading and honourable part. It has been in our minds that we may be able in future to select our forestry candidates in this manner. But in view of the highly technical nature of the instruction that we have to impart, and the fact that we are bound to specialise our teaching, I think we are entitled to ask at the hands of Parliament that we shall be allowed to conduct that teaching in the manner which we consider best in the interests of India.

EARL SPENCER

My Lords, I rise to offer a few remarks upon this subject, which I think is one of considerable importance. The noble Earl who introduced it did so in a most admirable manner. He came forward, as we thought, principally to represent Cambridge, but he argued his case on general grounds of policy. I entirely agree with him as to that. It seems to me that if we are not to maintain with regard to this question of forestry the general rule which has been hitherto adopted, that all places of education should be able to send up candidates for the great Civil Services, we shall be creating a bad precedent. I speak not only as a Cambridge man, but also as representing other Universities, of one of which, a northern University, I have the honour to be Chancellor. I cannot see that the noble Marquess, in his clear and able statement, has furnished any argument why this difference should be made, with regard to forestry. As far as I can gather, the Royal Indian Engineering School at Coopers Hill is being practically done away with, because it is found that in many places of education all over the country admirable teaching is given in the various subjects taught at Coopers Hill. I cannot understand, however, why it is necessary to require that the pupil students in forestry should all be instructed by one teacher. Why is it necessary that they should all be obliged to reside at a particular University? Why are these requirements more necessary for forestry students than for the other students at Coopers Hill?

The noble Marquess the Under-Secretary of State for India has stated that this is a temporary affair. I do not understand that. The noble Marquess is quite ready to promise that there shall be a Committee to inquire into the working of the experiment at the end of five, or even three years. But I think that what the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said is perfectly true, that if you once establish this school at a particular University it will be exceedingly difficult to remove it, and therefore an injustice will be done to a great many places of education. I cannot understand, exactly, the comparison between Oxford and Cambridge with regard to special advantages in this matter. Although not an Oxford man, I have not infrequently passed Oxford, and it has never occurred to me that it was situated in the centre of a great forest; and Cambridge, like Oxford, has within easy reach very large woods—in Bedfordshire, and even Northamptonshire, for instance. I do not understand, therefore, why Cambridge should be placed at a disadvantage in this respect. Moreover, Cambridge University can hold its own for scientific teaching with any place of education. I hope your Lordships will agree to the Resolution, as it is of great importance that we should not give an advantage to one particular University over another. I sincerely hope the Government will not commit us to the new proposal adumbrated with regard to the Civil Service, to which there is such great opposition.

*THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE)

My Lords, when the two old Universities compete with one another there is always a certain amount of animated rivalry. It is, I am happy to think, invariably of a friendly description, and I trust that in this species of tug-of-war which is proceeding between Oxford and Cambridge for the possession of the Coopers Hill forestry students the rivalry will continue to be friendly. I cannot help thinking that the amount of resentment which we are told has been provoked by these proposals is of a somewhat exaggerated character. For, my Lords, what, after all, is the case? Coopers Hill College, for reasons into which I will not enter, because the question is not now before the House, has been put an end to; and it becomes necessary to consider what is to be done with that small portion of students who have hitherto attended there for the purpose of studying forestry. They must be sent somewhere, and, on the whole, the Indian authorities have come to the conclusion that the University of Oxford offers the greatest facilities for the purpose. One thing seems to me obvious—namely, that this small handful of students could not possibly be scattered about over a number of different educational establishments. The noble Earl opposite seemed to think that the process of scattering might be accomplished without difficulty.

EARL SPENCER

There are Colonial as well as Indian sudents.

*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

The point is this. The study of forestry is a highly specialised study and can only be pursued at places where particular educational facilities are forthcoming. It was for the authorities to consider, and they did so with a perfectly open mind, whether they should send these students to Oxford or Cambridge. My noble friend the noble Marquess will correct me if I am wrong, but I am given to understand that when the proposal was put before the University of Cambridge the University authorities themselves admitted that they possessed no particular facilities for encouraging the study of forestry. I did not understand that that was merely due to the fact, although it is a fact, that the neighbourhood of Cambridge does not abound in those woodlands which are supposed to be desirable for the purpose of practical study. The result is this: that it has been decided to send this little body of some twenty students to study for a two years course at the University of Oxford. The noble Earl is horrified, because he sees in this arrangement a blow at the practice of open competition. I am able to reassure the noble Earl on that point. These students will be allowed to come up from any school or college, and they will gain admission to this forestry class by open competition, and open competition only. Therefore, your Lordships need not be in the least afraid that this proposal strikes an insidious blow at the practice of open competition. Then it is suggested that this is a dangerous discrimination in favour of one University at the expense of another. But what is the financial magnitude of this tremendous innovation? The whole expense of these forestry classes is to be borne, as it is now, out of Indian funds, and the only new financial element introduced into the calculation is a modest grant of £200 a year to the Professor of Entomology in order that he may deliver a special course to the forestry students. This is an experiment which is to be tried for, I understand, three years, and if the result falls short of expectation the whole question will be reviewed and an effort will be made to find some better arrangement. In these circumstances it would be somewhat violent for the House to take it upon itself to record, as my noble friend proposes, its solemn disapproval of the proposals of the Secretary of State.

*VISCOUNT GOSCHEN

My Lords, I desire, as a representative of Oxford, to address a few remarks to your Lordships on this subject, though I cannot add much to what has been stated by the noble Marquess the Under-Secretary. I hope I may be permitted to congratulate the noble Marquess, as an old friend of mine, on his appointment, and on the able manner in which he stated the views of the India Office this evening. The real difficulty, it seems to me, is the smallness of the whole operation. If there were fifty or sixty students, they could fitly be divided amongst several Universities. It is desirable that these students should receive technical education at an early period of their careers, and by getting them together the necessity of duplicating the teaching establishment is avoided. The scheme of my noble friend behind me practically comes to this: that there is to be no school of forestry at all, but that special studies shall be relegated to the close of the full University course. The choice lies between keeping the school in one place and scattering the students so widely as to have no professorial teaching in forestry at any University. Supposing that Cambridge were to get some of these students. Are they going to appoint a special professor? No. The whole quarrel turns on the possession of some ten men a year. Is it worth while to set up teaching establishments everywhere? That seems to me the real difficulty, and I think that in this matter, at all events for three years, the general principle must be sacrificed for the sake of the practical result of keeping the school together. For the next three years there will be forestry teachers at Oxford, and Oxford will endow a professorship connected with a kindred subject for the purpose of strengthening the teaching of forestry. Far from gaining by this arrangement Oxford will contribute a notable sum to the teaching of forestry in the University. In these circumstances Cambridge cannot feel that resentment which my noble friend has described. Nothing can be more deplorable than that a feeling of jealousy or resentment between the two great Universities should be aroused over this small question. Coopers Hill contains some fifty students, forty of them engineering, and ten of them forestry students. Of those forty engineering students, Oxford cannot expect to get any proportion worth having Cambridge is the proper place for the engineering students, and Cambridge will capture the greater number of those students. On the other hand, Oxford might well be permitted to capture the much smaller number of forestry students. I hope your Lordships will see that in the interests of practical education in forestry the scheme of the Government is better adapted, so far as we can judge at present, to the needs of the case than the scheme which was sketched by my noble friend behind me.

*THE LORD BISHOP OF BRISTOL

My Lords, I only intervene to say that the question is much larger than a dispute for the possession of ten men a year. It means that in the future all forestry appointments over an enormous area in India and the Colonies will be filled by Oxford men. Of this great influence Cambridge is entitled by its equipments and ability to have its full share.

*THE EARL OF LYTTON

My Lords, with your Lordships' permission I should like to make a few remarks in reply to some of the speeches which have been delivered, and especially to some points raised by the noble Viscount. The noble Viscount said that Cambridge would capture the very much larger number of engineering students, and that Oxford might therefore be allowed to capture the forestry students; but I would point out to your Lordships that if Cambridge is to make any such capture as that, it will be in the open market.

VISCOUNT GOSCHEN

So shall we capture the forestry students in the open market.

*THE EARL OF LYTTON

Well, I think not. The noble Marquess the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs also stated that we were going to have open competition under the scheme put forward by the India Office. But if that is so, the noble Marquess can have no objection to the Motion, because I protest against nothing. All I ask is that equal facilities should be given to all Universities, and it is because equal facilities will not be given to all Universities that the noble Marquess will find it impossible to vote for this Motion. Students will have to leave whatever University they are in to go to Oxford to continue their course, and is it likely that any student destined for a course of forestry will go to one college and at the end of the year leave it and go to Oxford? In practice, of course, it will mean that all the forestry students in the future will be drawn from Oxford. I entirely disagree with the noble Viscount who said that it was a quarrel for the possession of ten men. This question is not merely one of ten students a year. If the Colonial Forestry School grows as it is promising to grow, in a few years the number of students will come nearer the fifty or sixty a year, which he says might fitly be divided among several Universities. The noble Marquess the Under-Secretary of State for India devoted the whole of his speech to proving that if it was a question, which he took for granted, of one of the two Universities, Oxford was the more fitted, and the only reasons he brought forward for objecting to the scheme I suggested of throwing competition open to all Universities alike was that it would be inconvenient if the ten students were not kept together.

THE MARQUESS OF BATH

I said it was necessary, in our opinion, that they should be kept together.

*THE EARL OF LYTTON

Yes, necessary on the ground that they must have teehnical training in forestry while carrying out their scientific education; and, finally, the noble Marquess said that if the students were scattered over the Universities of the country the provision of teachers for them out of the revenues of India would be, a very serious matter. I entirely deny that it would be necessary for the Indian Government to provide teachers of forestry in each University. I think you could leave it to the Universities to provide their own teachers and to give the necessary technical as well as scientific education in forestry. The necessary technical instruction can be given just as easily in Cambridge as in Oxford. Many of the landowners around Cambridge are ready to co-operate and place their woods and forests at the disposal of the authorities if this forestry scheme is placed in such a position that the University of Cambridge is allowed to participate. I am grateful to the noble Marquess for saying that there will be an inquiry into this matter, but I insist again on the point I made just now, that if money is going to be spent on the scheme at Oxford it is futile to describe it as temporary. I am afraid a protected interest will arise which is always found, in the long run, extremely difficult to remove.

VISCOUNT GOSCHEN

What money is going to be spent at Oxford?

*THE EARL OF LYTTON

I think that under the proposals of the India Office the sum of £200 a year is to be given to the Professor of Entomology at Oxford. I say that if any sum is to be

CONTENTS.
York, L. Abp. Esher, V. Clements, L. (E. Leitrim.)
Falkland, V. Denman, L.
Gordon, V. (E. Aberdeen.) Kinnaird, L.
Ripon, M. Macnaghten, L.
Bristol, L. Bp. Reay, L.
Beauchamp, E, Winchester, L. Bp. St. Levan, L.
Crewe, E. Stanmore, L.
Lytton, E. [Teller.] Thring, L.
Portsmouth, E. Ashcombe, L. Tweedmouth, L.
Spencer, E. Burghclere, L. [Teller.] Wandsworth, L.
NOT-CONTENTS.
Canterbury, L. Abp. Camperdown, E. Biddulph, L.
Halsbury, E. (L. Chancellor.) Feversham, E. Dunboyne, L.
Vane, E. (M. Londonderry.) (L. President.) Waldegrave, E. [Teller.] Ellenborough, L.
Weatmeath, E. Hylton, L.
Salisbury, M. (L. Privy Seal.) Killanin, L.
Colville of Culross, V. Kilmarnock, L. (E. Erroll.)
Marlborough, D. Goschen, V. Lawrence, L. [Teller.]
Hill, V. Mostyn, L.
Bath, M. Tennyson, L.
Lansdowne, M. Rochester, L. Bp. Windsor, L.
Linlithgow, M. Zouche of Haryngworth, L.
Aldenham, L.
Clarendon, E. (L. Chamberlain.) Ashbourne, L.

House adjourned at ten minutes before Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.