§ LORD NEWTONrose "To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he was prepared to make a further statement with regard to Macedonia; and whether any further Papers would be presented to Parliament." The noble Lord said: My Lords, in recurring to this subject, which has been so frequently debated in this House, I should like to explain that I do so for several reasons. In the first place, there is considerable difficulty in obtaining time for a discussion upon this question in the House of Commons; in the second place, we are approaching in this House the period of the session when the annual congestion of business takes place, and it is impossible to devote much time to any subject, however important; and, in the third place, it appears to me that an opportune moment has arrived when the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs might well make a statement on the subject.
The recent discussions upon this matter have taken the form of assertions by various speakers, myself included, that no actual improvement has taken place in the condition of that part of the world known as Macedonia since the introduction of the Mürzsteg programme; and the reply of the noble Mürquess has been to the effect that a slow but gradual improvement is in progress, and that, in fact, things are better than they would appear. As to my own view, I have never concealed the opinion that the slow progress which has attended the work of reform is largely due to the highly inefficient action of the two Powers— —Austro-Hungary and Russia—to whom this scheme of reform has been entrusted; and, although I have been censured by the noble Marquess for expressing these views, I am still quite unrepentant, and see no reason to retract from the opinion I have already expressed.
1021 I will not say anything about the position of Austria; but, when you come to think of it seriously, what can be more grotesque, what can be more absurd, than that at the present moment Russia should be entrusted by Europe with a kind of mandate for delivering the oppressed and of instituting improvement and more advanced methods of administration in any part of the world? This procedure really can only be characterised as one of those solemn and elaborate farces which diplomacy sometimes finds it necessary to countenance. On the last occasion that I spoke on the subject in your Lordships' House I pointed out that there was no essential change in the conditions prevailing in that country. I contended that life and property were just as unsafe and that the future was just as menacing; that the fury of the racial struggle was unabated, and that the massacres, assassinations, and atrocities committed by the rival Christian races upon each other were as frequent as ever.
And with reference to those events, which are generally described vaguely as atrocities, I may mention that I constantly receive communications, alternately from Bulgarians and Greeks, furnishing me with long lists of persons who have been assassinated or otherwise maltreated. This is corroborated by impartial testimony from other sources, and, allowing for a reasonable amount of exaggeration, I think the main facts cannot well be disputed; and it is not unnaturally regarded as a scandal that such a state of things should be permitted by the Turkish Government. Possibly it is a scandal; but, on the whole, it is not so surprising as many people appear to imagine, because the authority of the Turkish Government has been so weakened in Macedonia, as in other parts of the Turkish Empire, that really one of the few methods that remain to them of maintaining their rule is by keeping up the divisions which exist between the Christian races.
I have additional testimony as to the correctness of the views I have expressed with regard to the condition of Macedonia in a letter which I have recently received from a gentleman with whom I am acquainted, who has made an extended tour throughout the country, 1022 who is a perfectly impartial critic, speaking the language of the various races and who is intimately acquainted with the Balkan Peninsula. This gentleman wrote only a month ago—
There is as yet no marked or substantial improvement in the condition of the population resulting from the application of the Mürzsteg programme. Such advantages as have been gained are mainly of a negative character. There are now, for instance, fewer complaints with regard to the conduct of the Gendarmerie, and this doubtless betokens a certain alteration of the sufferings of the peasantry. The foreign officers stationed in the various districts are powerless to prevent the excesses and barbarities which frequently occur, but the moral effect of their presence is nevertheless considerable, and the recent increase in the number of these impartial and vigilant observers cannot fail to be productive of good. The Gendarmerie, however, cannot work satisfactorily until the judiciary of which it is the organ is thoroughly overhauled and subjected to European supervision. But judicial reform must wait until financial reorganisation is effected, and the financial scheme adopted by the Powers has not yet received the assent of the Sultan. There is consequently little positive progress to record.When I and other speakers pointed out these facts at the end of last March, the noble Marquess, doubtless from a loyal desire to do the best he could for his foreign colleagues, replied that there had been a gradual improvement in the situation, and he specified as instances of improvement that there had been a considerable amount of repatriation. He also stated that hopeful experiments were in progress with regard to the commutation of tithe; and lastly, he pointed out that the foreign Gendarmerie was a success.I admit cheerfully that the experiment of the foreign Gendarmerie is a success, although I think it is fair to add that it is only a somewhat partial success. Now, what is the reason why this one portion of the reforms—namely, that relating to the Gendarmerie—is a success? To my mind the reason is perfectly obvious. It is because it is international and is not under the exclusive influence of the agents of Austria-Hungary and Russia; and, with regard to the question of the Gendarmerie, it is extremely gratifying to us as a nation to observe the confidence which is displayed towards British officers by all sections of the population; and it is one of the most pleasant features in a thoroughly unsatisfactory state of things that all the more intelligent people in the 1023 Near East, whether they be Christians or Mussulmans, recognise that we only wish to do what is right, that we have no desire to annex territory, and, in short, that OUT motives are above suspicion. I may add, without wishing to boast, that the sentiments with which our representatives are regarded are very different from those with which representatives of other Powers are regarded, who, I regret to say, are frequently looked upon as the pioneers of an annexationist policy. But, to return to the question of the Gendarmerie, I must point out that it is really unreasonable to expect too much from this force.
§ LORD NEWTONI am glad to hear that the noble Marquess agrees with me. The Gendarmerie is a police force intended to deal with the country when it is in a state of peace. Nobody, however optimistic he might be by nature, could successfully contend that what is known as Macedonia is at this moment in a state of peace. It is much more correct to say that it is in a state, if not of actual warfare, at all events in a state approaching actual warfare; and it is perfectly plain, that a few thousand Gendarmerie, however well trained, well led, and well organised they may be, are quite unable to deal with the immense difficulties of the present situation. I will admit that they have done as much as could well be expected of them; but I gather, from information which I have obtained from persons who have been out there recently, that their task would be considerably facilitated if they could be made really independent of the civil authority, and if, in particular, they could be allowed to have control of the police in the towns and villages where police exist; because, as everybody who has any acquaintance with Turkey knows, the police are the greatest obstacles in many instances to the satisfactory government of the country.
What is the moral of what I have recited? To my mind it is this, that whereas Austria-Hungary and Russia, represented by the civil agents, have failed nearly completely in their task, 1024 international control, as distinct from Austria-Hungary and Russian control, has at all events been to a great extent successful. From this it seems to me to follow naturally that the services of these civil agents should be dispensed with on an early opportunity which, as I shall point out, will shortly occur, and that a genuine European control should be substituted for that which now is actually in existence. I must plead guilty to having used somewhat hard words myself with reference to these civil agents, but on mature consideration I am inclined to think they are more deserving of pity than censure, because anyone who has carefully studied their functions will, I think, realise that they do not possess any real power; they are not responsible, so far as I can see, to anyone in particular. They are directed to draw the attention of Hilmi Pashi to anything which may occur to them, but they have no power of enforcing their opinions; and the result is that the role which they play is not much more important than that of an official or semi-official spectator.
I desire to point out to the House that the noble Marquess, who, to do him justice, has shown much more interest in these questions than any other Foreign Minister, has a good opportunity before him. The mandate of these civil agents expires shortly Article 1 of the Mìrzsteg Programme says—
Lcur mandat expirera dans leydlai de deux ans a partir de leur nomination."That is to say, in a few weeks, or in a month or so, their mandate comes to an end. There cannot possibly be any wriggling out of this stipulation. It is perfectly clear that under the scheme the mandate of the two agents comes to an end in a short time; and although Austria-Hungary and Russia have apparently shown a disposition to cling to their exceptional position and have actually put forward a financial reorganisation scheme of their own, which was apparently to be carried out largely it our expense, I am happy to observe that the noble Marquess has intimated has the question has now reached a stage where all the Powers have a right to make themselves heard. And, really, in view of the present situation of Austria-Hun-gary and Russia, it would be an act of 1025 kindness to relieve them from this kind of responsibility and give them time to attend to their own domestic affairs.What I venture, therefore, to suggest to the noble Marquess is that these civil agents, who are the symbol, so to speak, of Austria-Hungarian and Russian predominance, should disappear, that their functions should be taken over by representatives of the Powers under the general financial reorganisation scheme to which all the Powers have agreed, but to which the assent of the Sultan has not yet been obtained. As the noble Marquess and others have pointed out, financial reorganisation is the basis of improved administration. It is, in fact, the first condition of success, and it is at the root of all judicial and civil reform. What I lam disposed to believe myself is that if a really genuine international control, in which each Power is equally represented, can be established, and if the representatives of the various nations are not merely financial experts but men who really understand the country with which they have to deal, then a considerable step will have been taken to avoid a conflict which I personally fear is almost inevitable in the future.
What we have got in Macedonia at present is an unsatisfactory compromise. The Turks are not allowed to govern the country according to their own ideas, and we have nominally European control, which in reality does not exist; and things have now gone so far that it is perfectly plain that they are quite incapable, of their own accord, of re-establishing a proper state of things. If they were sensible—which most unfortunately they are not—they would agree to a genuine international control as the best means of preserving these provinces. Otherwise I think it is perfectly plain that they stand a very great risk of losing them altogether. Therefore I hope to hear from the noble Marquess that any further development which is contemplated in the direction of reforms will bear a strictly international charter; that, if possible, the Adrianople vilayet will be included in the new scheme; and I sincerely hope it will be effective, not only in the interests of the subject races but in the interests of the Turks.
1026 Out interests in the Near East, whatever some people may think, are not solely humanitarian. I think I may safely say that it is not to the interests of this country, nor to the interests of France or Italy, that one of the great military Empires should find any pretext for eventually establishing itself on. the shores of the Ægean. The interest of this country is that the Turkish Empire in Europe should continue, provided the rule can be made tolerable to its subjects; but the present state of Macedonia seems to me to justify the fears I have frequently expressed, and I cannot find any better excuse for my action this evening than in the words which were used by the noble Marquess on the last occasion, when he said that white the condition of the Balkan Peninsula remains what it is that state of things constitutes a standing menace to the peace of Europe.
§ THE EARL OF CREWEMy Lords, I think the House has reason to be grateful to my noble friend opposite for having brought forward this question which he so thoroughly understands, and I am quite sure that the noble Marquess himself will make no complaint of its having been raised once more. I am disposed to agree with what fell from Lord Newton that there is not much to be gained by merely abusing the Turkish Government. Things being as they are, and the Turkish Government being what it is, it is impossible to expect any very close or useful co-operation from that Government in carrying out reforms in Macedonia, Equally, I think there is no advantage in deriding the two Governments—the Governments of Russia and Austria-Hungary—who have undertaken the very difficult and thankless task of acting for Europe in this matter; but it is permissible to point out that, so far as can be gathered from the Papers on the subject, this dual attempt has been, on the whole, a failure.
The noble Lord said that to some extent the Gendarmerie had been a success. I am not prepared to dispute that. I have no doubt that, as time has gone on, they have become somewhat more efficient, thanks to the measures described by the noble Marquess 1027 in the last debate; but they are a very small body, considering the extent of ground that has to be covered; and I think it would be reasonable to say that all that they have practically been able to do is to prevent by their presence outrages which might otherwise have taken place. But I find outrages have occurred. In one case at Kuklitch, referred to in a previous debate by the noble Marquess, some forty persons were murdered, and there were ten or twelve cases of outrage, children being included, and more than half the village was burnt with petroleum. I understand that our Ambassador at Constantinople has protested against that outrage and demanded that its perpetrators should receive punishment. I now beg to ask the noble Marquess whether any steps have been taken in the matter and whether anybody has been brought to justice; and, if not, whether he is prepared to take any action. Since the last debate there has been another outrage in which many persons were killed and a village destroyed. Perhaps the noble Marquess will tell us whether anyone has been brought to justice in connection with that matter.
I do not wish to go over the ground covered by the noble Lord, and I will therefore merely ask the noble Marquess one or two Questions relating to the financial aspect of the situation. The financial scheme has been accepted, I think I am right in saying, by all the Powers; but it is the fact, as I understand, that the Sultan has not yet acceded to it. I should like the noble Marquess to tell us whether any provision has been made in the event of the Sultan not acceding to the desire of the Powers for this financial scheme. We know that Turkish methods are of a dilatory character, and it may be the case that the Sultan will not point blank refuse to agree to the scheme; but, in the event of the matter being put off from day to day, week to week, and month to month, perhaps the noble Marquess can tell us whether any provision has been made for applying to the Turkish Government that modified form of coercion which has been efficacious in similar cases. Time is running short, and the dual arrangement will automatically come 1028 to an end in the month of October. I do not know whether it would be pressing the noble Marquess too much to ask if any provision has been made for a modification of that arrangement. I find myself in general agreement with the noble Lord that it would be a disastrous thing, both for Macedonia and to some extent for Europe as a whole, if that dual system were allowed to continue; and I hope the noble Marquess, as this is the last occasion probably on which we shall have a chance of asking for information before October, may be able to tell us whether the Powers have arrived at any conclusion as to the modification of that arrangement, and what the views of His Majesty's Government may be on this very crucial point of the whole matter.
*THE LORD BISHOP OF OXFORDMy Lords, I remember many years ago that unreasonable leniency was shown at school to a first fault, and I believe that a like leniency is shown to what well may be called a first fault, a premonitory symptom of a dangerous tendency—a first speech in your Lordships' House; and I would avail myself of that leniency to speak briefly of the reasons which make me anxious to associate myself with the appeal made by the noble Lord who has brought this subject before us. I always feel that there is a very serious responsibility resting on all who bring pressure in any way to bear on those who hold the helm in matters of public interest unless they are themselves well informed in the things of which they speak; and yet there are certain broad facts before us which do, I think, warrant us all in bearing our part and saying what we feel about this matter.
Let me speak briefly of the two facts which seem to me perfectly clear. The first is that we have before us in Macedonia a state of things crying, with a great and bitter cry, for reform. We have been told, and we are very glad indeed to be told, that there has been some advance; but no one can look at the indisputable reports which come to us without feeling that the state of things in Macedonia is not only, as has been said, a menace to the peace of Europe, but that it also will have a tendency to 1029 familiarise us all with the spectacle of misrule and cruelty: and to be so familiarised is bad for every civilised country. So it is not merely in the interests of humanity and of justice, but for the sake of keeping up the right standard of sensitiveness to wrong-doing that we may, I think, bear our part in pressing for courageous methods of reform. That is one fact before us.
The other, I am afraid, is not less clear It is that the position is one of extraordinary and complicated difficulty. The Powers to which we have turned for help are themselves embarrassed by their own difficulties; the people whom we would help are themselves divided—bitterly divided—by racial and ecclesiastical differences; so that those who should help, and those whom we would succour, alike present us with difficulties of a most serious kind. Now, what are we to do when we feel that the obligation to press for reform rests upon us and that the difficulty besetting the task of reform is incalculably great? May I point to an analogy? The difficulties of relieving poverty are familiar to us all. We have learnt the harm of indiscriminate charity. We know that it may often do as much harm as good. I think that indiscriminate agitation is like indiscriminate charity. But I also think in both cases that total abstinence is not the right course. We cannot abstain from charity. We cannot abstain from bringing what pressure we rightly may bring to bear for the solution of this question.
We can—and this should be, I think, our main object—assure those who have the administration of affairs that in whatever venture they may make for the cause of justice and good government they will have a solid body of national feeling behind them, that they can rely on forces supporting them, that they may know that there is a large body of people in England who do greatly care about this terrible scene of misrule—a large body of people who are willing, whenever the opportunity is given them, to throw all the weight they can into the support of whatever pressure may be brought to bear to bring about a cessation of this disorder and misrule. A general, I suppose, feels strong if he knows 1030 that the force behind him is adequate; he feels more confident still if he knows that the force behind him is determined and resolute; perhaps he may act more boldly still if he knows that that force is restless to do something. We should like to assure those who administer affairs that they have behind them a body of public feeling not only strong and resolute but restless until something may be done.
§ *THE MARQUESS OF LANSD0WNEMy Lords, my noble friend who spoke first referred to the recurrent debates on this subject and recapitulated the case as stated by him on various occasions, and as stated in reply by myself. I do not think that my noble friend and I differ as to the objects which it should be our endeavour to accomplish, and after listening to his speech I am tempted to add that I do not think we differ very much as to the means which should be pursued in endeavouring to arrive at those objects. I am always struck in these debates with the advantage which, if I may so put it, lies with the prosecution. It is so easy to wax indignant over the sufferings of these poor people. It is so simple to complain of the slow progress which I has been achieved, and apart from the skill with which my noble friend always handles matters which he brings forward in this House, he has a not very difficult task when he comes here to tell us that the international machine is moving very slowly, that it often sticks in a rut, and when he, so to speak, cracks his whip at us in the hope of making us move rather faster.
My noble friend perhaps under-rates both the difficulty of the task with which the Powers are confronted and the measure of success which they have accomplished. As to the difficulty of the task, let me express the pleasure with which I listened to what was said on that point by the right rev. Prelate. May I be permitted to add that, if the speech which he has delivered to us to-night can be described, as he described it, as a first fault, we desire that he should become an habitual criminal? Well, my Lords, the position of the country we are discussing this afternoon remains, 1031 I am afraid, very far from satisfactory. Of late the complication has been added to by the appearance of a number of Greek bands, with whom, at first, the Turkish troops seemed to be quite unable to cope, although of late they have I shown more activity, and have achieved a greater measure of success. But, if I am to tell your Lordships anything of the general condition of the country, I prefer to rely upon the evidence of one whose testimony I should certainly I set against that of the unnamed informant I to whom my noble friend referred, although a great deal of what was said by that unnamed informant shows much knowledge of the facts, and a very sound appreciation of them.
Sir Nicholas O'Conor a few days ago reported to us that, owing to the reforms, even so far as they have gone, there is a distinct improvement in the general situation, although the presence of Greek and Bulgarian bands continues to disturb the country. In another despatch he tells us that His Majesty's Consul-General at Salonika ascertained from the Vali of that district that, with the exception of one band, the Bulgarian komitajis had been quiescent for some I time in the Salonika province. The Vali also stated that there was a marked decrease in the number and activity of the Greek bands in his vilayet, and he trusted that the movement was coming to an end; although he said I that there was a great deal of bad blood between the Greeks and the Bulgarians and that there had been several murders within the last few days. His Majesty's I Vice-Consul at Uskub reported on July 4th that the comparative improvement in the situation continued during the month of June. The Bulgarians continued to keep quiet, and no news of any encounters between troops and Bulgarian bands had been received since the end of the month of May. I There were Servian bands showing activity in the Uskub district, but they were being rapidly split up.
The noble Earl opposite questioned me as to the action which had been taken in consequence of the excesses committed by the Turkish troops on, I think, two occasions. One was the! deplorable massacre at a place called 1032 Kuklitch. As to that, I am able to tell him that a military commission was appointed to inquire into the conduct of the troops, and that those concerned in those outrages have actually received punishment of various degrees, of severity. The inquiry as to the outrages at the other place he mentioned is, I believe, still in progress.
My noble friend, Lord Newton, has spoken to us to-night again of the failure of the Müzsteg scheme; and I am not here to assert that the numerous proposals embodied in that scheme have been carried out with any general degree of success. But I think it may be said of many of them that nobody could have seriously expected that such proposals could have been carried out to the full within the space of less than two years.
One of those proposals was that there should be a new grouping of nationalities, and a sort of rearrangement of population. The sorting and shuffling of human beings in a country in the state that Macedonia is in is a task from which the most courageous reformers might well shrink. We have had, even in these islands, some experience of the difficulty of moving a population from one part of the country to another, and we know that such operations are not very easily conducted. But, my Lords, on other points I think we may fairly say that, something has been achieved. The work of repatriation has gone on and is still in progress. I have seen a complaint that the promise made in the Mürzsteg scheme that the inhabitants of some of the villages which have been burnt should be exempted from taxation for a year has not been kept. I have made some inquiry into that; and we have heard from our Consul at Monastir that as a matter of fact these people were exempted from taxation for a year, although, owing to the deficiency of funds in the hands of the local Governments, it is quite possible that the full measure of relief may not always have reached the persons for whom it was intended.
There is another point to which I have always attached great importance. I mean the question of the reform of the tithe system. I do not believe there is any reform the execution of which will 1033 have greater practical effect on the well-being of the population than the commutation of the tithes. The experiment was tried in a certain number of villages and proved to be completely successful; and I am assured that it is intended to carry out the same reform in the whole of the three vilayets, and that in the case of seven cantons it will be put into operation at once. Then another point as to which criticism has been offered is the employment of Bashi-Bazouks by the Turks in connection with their Regular troops. As to that I am able to say that our remonstrances have not been without effect, that a proclamation was issued by the Turkish Government condemning any Bashi-Bazouks who might be found with arms in their hands to be shot, and that that proclamation has apparently had a very useful deterrent effect. Sir Nicholas O'Conor, at any rate, reports to us that of late the cases in which Bashi-Bazouks were employed have been exceedingly rare.
My noble friend Lord Newton spoke of the reorganisation of the Gendarmerie; and I was very glad to notice that he attached importance to what is being done, and particularly to the manner in which the reorganised Gendarmerie in the district for which we are responsible has done its work. I think that is the more creditable, because in this case, although we speak of the reorganisation of the Gendarmerie, what was done was really the substitution of a brand-new force for the old, ill-paid, ill-fed, ill-armed, and ill-disciplined body which went by the name of the Macedonian Gendarmerie. It is perfectly true, as my noble friend told your Lordships, that in the British district the Gendarmerie, and particularly the British officers in command of them, have learnt how to secure the full confidence of the villagers; and outside our own district, although I will not contradict my noble friend when he claims that our district may be regarded as a model district, outside our district General de Giorgis and the international officers associated with him have been able to bring into operation a new scheme of distribution under which the country will be properly mapped out into districts, and posts attached to each district.
1034 I am also told that on the occasion of his recent visit to Constantinople General de Giorgis was able to obtain from the I Turkish Government approval for three I changes which he has always regarded as of vital importance. I mean the improvement of the status of the Turkish officers in command of the Gendarmerie, the addition to the Gendarmerie of a certain number of recruits drawn from the Turkish Army, and, thirdly, the arming of the force with the Mauser rifle. We are sometimes told that the surveillance exercised by these officers of the Gendarmerie over the Turkish troops has proved of little or no value. I do not agree with that. There have been, no doubt, cases in which regrettable excesses have taken place, in spite of the fact that international officers accompanied the Turkish forces; but the presence of these officers has been the means of obtaining authentic information with regard to these occurrences; and it is upon that information that we have been able to found our complaints and remonstrances, which, as I stated a moment ago, have led in some cases to the punishment of the culpable persons. But in other cases it is unquestionable that the presence of European officers with Turkish troops did prove the means of preventing excesses; and I may mention in particular what took place at a village named Smol, where an insurgent band was surrounded and overcome by the Turkish troops and where no damage was inflicted on the peaceable inhabitants.
In the case of the Gendarmerie, as in almost all other cases, it is the want of funds which has been the real obstacle to more thorough-going reforms; and I wish to say one word with regard to that question of financial reforms upon which my noble friend touched in his speech. When I last spoke to your Lordships on the subject of Macedonia I mentioned to you that there were at the time no less than three schemes or proposals before the Powers. There was, in the first place, the scheme of reform put forward by the Turkish Government; in the second place and connected with it was the proposal of the Turkish Government that the Customs duties should be increased by 3 per cent, in order to provide the 1035 necessary funds; and, in the third place, there was the scheme put forward by Russia and Austria Hungary. With regard to the increase of the Customs duties I need only remind your Lordships that His Majesty's Government, having regard to our large interest in the commerce of Turkey, found themselves unable to agree to that proposal without further evidence that by an economical and honest administration of the Customs the necessary funds might not be provided without any increase in the scale of duties.
With regard to the two schemes put forward by the Turkish Government on the one hand and by the Austro-Hun-garian and Russian Governments on the other, both of which were based upon the agency of the Imperial Ottoman Bank, we found on examination that both those schemes contained some admirable points, but that both of them were defective, in the first place because they did not contain sufficient guarantees that the requirements of the Macedonian provinces would form a first charge upon the revenue or that the sums allocated for different services would reach their destination. Both the schemes seemed to us open to that objection. Besides that, the Turkish scheme seemed to us inadequate because it did not provide for any external control over the execution of reforms, while the scheme of the two Powers was based on the assumption that that control should be exercised by Austria-Hungary and Russia alone. In our view it was essential that if these schemes were to be productive of good results they should be carried out under international control.
That leads me to say a word on a point which figured conspicuously in my noble friend's statement—I mean the so-called mandate given to the two Powers less than two years ago. In the first Article of the Mürzsteg Programme it is said that the work of the civil agents being to watch over the introduction of reforms and the pacification of the population, their mandate would expire in two years from the time of their appointment. The Mürzsteg scheme was presented to the Porte in October, 1903, and the time is, as my noble friend told us, drawing near when 1036 that period of two years expires. We have had some discussion—discussion, I am happy to say, of a most friendly nature—with the two Powers in question as to the duration and attributes of the so-called mandate. We never regarded that mandate as conferring upon the civil agents, so to speak, a lease renewable at intervals for ever. On the other hand, we never contemplated that at the expiration of two years the two Powers should be abruptly ousted from the position which had been accorded to them as the Powers geographically and for other reasons specially interested in the fortunes of Macedonia. But I will not recapitulate the arguments which have been used, because I am happy to say that a satisfactory agreement has been arrived at between the Powers concerned, an agreement under which the control of the scheme of financial reforms will be put under what I think my noble friend called genuine international control.
I think I can best describe the arrangement which has been accepted by giving your Lordships the substance of the Note presented by all the Powers to the Porte on May 8th last. In that Note the Powers have demanded the assent of the Porte to the following arrangement:— "The Powers are each to nominate a financial delegate to watch over the execution of the financial reforms and the application of the scheme, and to ensure its observance. These delegates will act in concert with the Inspector-General and the civil agents, whose duties have been defined in the Mürzsteg programme. The Commission thus formed will be given all the powers necessary for the accomplishment of their task, more especially for the supervision of the regular collection of the taxes, including the tithe. The budgets must be submitted to the Commission before being finally adopted. The Commission will have the right to modify any proposals dealing with the receipt or expenditure which may not be in conformity with the laws or with the economical and financial wants of the country. With a view to facilitating their mission, the Commission will have the right of nominating in each vilayet an inspector to superintend the agents 1037 employed in the various duties connected with the collection of taxes."
I hope those who have listened to the document which I have just read will see that it involves what I think I may describe without exaggeration as a very long step in the direction of securing not only a more effectual control over the finances of Macedonia, but a control of an international character. It is really no exaggeration to say that upon the satisfactory introduction of such measures of reform depends not only the success of the Gendarmerie force, but the question of the reform of the local police, which is an urgent one, of the adequacy of the relief measures to be taken for the succour of the inhabitants of the country, and, above all, of the efficiency and purity of the Law Courts; because if these officials are not paid at all, or are inadequately paid, it is perfectly clear that we must expect to find them either apathetic or, worse still, not in-corruptible. So far as to the action of the Powers in this matter.
I have been asked what about the attitude of the Porte. I will state, in the first place, the bare facts of the case. The Note I have read was presented to the Porte on May 8th. OnJune24th, not having received a reply, the Powers, through their representatives in Constantinople, demanded one. They received that reply a few days ago—on the 12th of this month—and I regret to say it was a refusal of our demands. As to that I cannot say more than this—that we have no idea of acquiescing in that refusal. And I may say with equal confidence that I do not believe any of the Powers concerned, any more than ourselves, have the slightest idea of receding from the very moderate and reasonable demands which they have put forward. I cannot, therefore, bring myself to contemplate that period of indefinite delay, running not only from week to week, but from month to month, of which my noble friend Lord Crewe spoke; and, although I cannot make any specific statement to your Lordships, I am satisfied that the Powers will insist upon an answer different from that which is at present in their hands.
§ EARL SPENCERMay I ask the noble Marquess to declare the position of the two Powers in October, after the mandate has been concluded.
§ *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEI daresay I did not make myself quite clear; but it is stated in the Note that the financial delegates appointed by the other Powers are to act with the Russian and Austro-Hungarian civil agents. On this Commission, which will control the finances and which will be concerned with all questions in which financial considerations are involved, the representatives of the other Powers will be on the same footing as the representatives of Austria-Hungary and Russia.
§ THE EARL OF CREWEI should like to ask whether I am right in understanding that in alt other respects the status of the civil agents remains unchanged.
§ *THE MARQUESS OP LANSDOWNEYes; no change is made in their status. We do not dethrone them; we associate other delegates with them. I hope I have said enough to your Lordships to show that, despite the discouraging experience which I am afraid we have encountered, and which we may encounter in the future, we have at any rate accomplished enough to justify us in dismissing altogether from our minds the idea that this is a task to be abandoned in despair. I should regard such an abandonment as not only disastrous to the Balkan Peninsula, but as highly injurious to the good name of this country. Nor, again, are we prepared to dissociate ourselves in dealing with this question from the other Powers. It is sometimes suggested to us that we should strike out a line of our own, and pursue our own policy fearlessly and without regard to the action of others. In my opinion the adoption of such a policy would find us alone in our glory, and, I am afraid, also alone in our impotence. We believe that we have been justified in endeavouring not to break up the concert of the Powers, that we have done well to work with them so far as we could, to maintain the most friendly and confidential relations with them, to watch events in the. Balkan Peninsula, to denounce excesses and irregularities, and to press for 1039 reforms, and to induce the other Powers, as far as we could, to work up to the level of the standard which we had set up for our own guidance. That has been our policy. It may have been disappointing in its results; but I venture to express my opinion that it has saved us from worse things, and that it has not been altogether unsuccessful in bringing some benefit to the people of Macedonia.
§ LORD NEWTONI should like to ask the noble Marquess whether he proposes to lay any further Papers, and whether he an inform the House who is to be the British representative on the International Commission. I would venture to express the hope that this country will be represented by our present Consul-General at Salonika, who is admirably fitted in every respect for such a task.
§ *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEI am not yet able to make a statement as to the selection of our representative. The reply to the first Question is—Yes, we shall lay further Papers on the Table.