§ LORD BURGHCLEREMy Lords, I rise "To ask His Majesty's Government how many cases of epizootic lymphangitis in military depots had occurred in Great Britain before the issue of the Board of Agriculture's Circular to local authorities of January 26th, 1904; how many cases have been reported from the same sources since that date up to the present month; whether any cases of the disease have occurred amongst horse-owners or others in Great Britain; and whether the Government will issue a Return of the number of horses shipped from South Africa which were affected by the disease, and died or were destroyed on the journey home."
Those of your Lordships who were present on a previous occasion when a discussion arose with regard to this particular horse disease, will not be surprised that further inquiry should be addressed to the Government on the subject, especially with regard to its existence in Great Britain and the measures that have been taken by the Government to protect horseowners and others from any danger of their horses cont acting the disease. We have learnt that this disease is a highly contagious one, which was imported, I believe, from South Africa amongst the Army horses that were sent from that country after the war. It is a disease the contagion of which is not only immediate, but what is called co-mediate—that is to say, a 837 groom or a person in contact with s horse suffering from this disease might convey it on his person or in some other way to other horses just in the same manner as certain, cattle diseases can be conveyed.
It is also a disease the period of ncubation of which is in some cases very lengthy. It may be from three weeks to three months, but there are cases which have extended as far as a year and even thirteen months, though I believe that is exceptional. I mention this fact in order to show your Lordships the danger there is of this disease being conveyed if horses are not either slaughtered or quarantined. The Questions on the Paper also refer to the military depôts, and I am glad to see my noble friend the Under-Secretary of State for War here, as possibly he will be able to give us some information on this question which may not be in the possession of the noble Lord who represents the Board of Agriculture.
I should like to ask the noble Earl one or two subsidiary Questions which arise out of those which I have ventured to put on the Paper. I should like to ask my noble friend, in the first place, what precautions were taken in South Africa to prevent horses being sent over here when it was known to the authorities there that such a disease as this existed; and secondly, whether—I do not put this forward on any information of my own, but merely as a matter of inquiry—there is any truth in the report that the authorities were warned that this disease might be introduced into this country by the shipment of horses and that that warning was disregarded. I should also like to ask my noble friend what precautions have been taken in this country with regard to Army horses to prevent officers and others sending them for sale or otherwise whilst they might be in a dangerous state. It was for that reason that I ventured to point out to your Lordships the length of the time of incubation of this disease, because it is quite obvious that if carelessness was shown by the military authorities horses might be sold to other people with the germs of the disease in them, which might be spread over the country. I 838 should like, therefore, to receive an assurance that every care was taken that these horses were not carelessly sent about the country, but were carefully; looked after and quarantined for a time.
Lastly, I should like to ask my noble friend to define to us exactly what the relations of the military authorities and the Board of Agriculture have been on this subject, because I consider that to be a very important matter. Those of your Lordships who have had anything to do with the administration of the Contagious Diseases Animals Act are well aware of the difficulties that often arise in enforcing the precautions necessary to carry out that Act amongst private persons, and if there is one body which ought to assist the Board of Agriculture in this particular duty surely it is a Government Department; and I should like to be assured that that was so, and that the military authorities reported at once any case of this new disease occurring in the military depôts. I hope I shall receive a satisfactory Answer, which will put a stop to the anxiety felt on the subject and afford a feeling of safety and security to horse-owners and others interested in horses. I beg to put the Questions standing in my name, and to ask whether the Government will give a Return comprising the information asked for.
*THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREMy Lords, it may perhaps be more convenient that I should first deal with the specific Questions on the Paper. The noble Lord asks, in the first place, how many cases of epizootic lymphangitis in military depôts had occurred before the issue of the circular of the Board of Agriculture to local authorities of January 26th, 1904. The Answer is 111–98 in Great Britain and 13 in Ireland. The noble Lord next asked how many cases have been reported from the same source since that date up to the present month. The number of cases reported since that date is 415. The total works out as follows:—Ireland, 37 cases, of which 2 were cured and the remainder destroyed; Great Britain, 489, of which 99 were cured,382 destroyed, and 8 remaining. Those eight are recoveries remaining under observation, 839 and therefore we can say that practically the disease has been stamped out as far as the Army is concerned. With regard to the Return asked for, we do not know of any horses that were shipped from South Africa while suffering from the disease; that is to say, we do not know of any horses being shipped from South Africa that were known to be diseased.
§ LORD BURGHCLEREDoes my noble friend say that this disease is not admitted to have been imported from South Africa?
*THF EARL OF DONOUGHMOREI understand the noble Lord to ask for a Return of the number of horses shipped from South Africa which were affected by the disease. I shall be glad to give him the total number of horses brought home, but I am told that no horses known to be suffering from this disease were shipped.
§ LORD BURGHCLEREIt would be satisfactory to have a Return of the horses shipped with any kind of disease. I should also like to know whether the Government were aware that this particular disease existed in South Africa before the horses were shipped.
*THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREI am informed that it did exist in South Africa, but that everybody did not know that it was epizootic lymphangitis. It was confounded with farcy.
§ LORD BURGHCLEREWere any horses shipped from South Africa in a state of disease which might eventually have developed into epizootic lymphangitis?
*THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREI am told that all the horses brought home were shipped with a clean bill of health.
§ EARL SPENCERAnd were none thrown overboard?
*THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORESome horses — forty-two in number, I think—did die on the way home. But that does not prove that they were 840 apparently diseased when they were shipped, the authorities certainly did not ship any horses knowing them to be infected.
I now come to the subsidiary Questions put to me by the noble Lord. As soon as the existence of the disease at home became known the War Office telegraphed an order to South Africa to stop all horses being sent home. I can, however, find no trace of any warning being sent from South Africa as to the existence of the disease; nor can any of the officers now in the Veterinary Department or the Remount Department remember any such warning being received. Indeed, they go further and say that the discovery of the disease here was largely instrumental in bringing to people's minds what was not clear before—its existence in South Africa. As to precautions to prevent the removal or sale of horses brought into contact with the disease, all such horses were most jealously shut up. They were not allowed to go out of the stable, or to be sold, or to associate with other horses within six months of the occurrence of the last case. As to our relations with the Board of Agriculture, we have kept that Department informed of the facts as they have occurred, and in the Report of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries for the year 1904 the noble Lord will find ample evidence of the fact that the chief of the Army Veterinary Department was working in consultation with the Board of Agriculture in the course of the action necessary in view of this outbreak.
*LORD WOLVERTONThe Question put down by my noble friend Lord Burghclere concerns primarily the Army Department, but I may possibly be able to clear up a few points in regard to the Board of Agriculture itself before the noble Earl opposite speaks. The purely civilian part of the Question, with which my noble friend did not deal, is as follows—"Whether any cases of the disease have occurred amongst horseowners or others in Great Britain. "I have in my hand a statement on that point which I think will be perfectly satisfactory to my noble friend. There have been nineteen outbreaks of this 841 disease in civilian stables reported to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries from April 18th, 1904, the date when the Order came into operation, to July 15th, 1905. The number of horses reported affected by the disease has been twenty-three, and the following table shows the number of outbreaks and the number of horses affected in each quarter since April, 1904. From April 18th to June 25th, 1904, there were seven outbreaks, and ten horses affected; from June to October in the same year, five outbreaks and five animals affected; from October, 1904, to January, 1905, two outbreaks and two animals affected; from January to April, 1905, two outbreaks and two animals affected; from April to June, 1905, two outbreaks and two animals affected; and from June to the present date, one outbreak and two animals affected. I think your Lordships will agree that these figures are satisfactory from the point of view of England. I have had a conversation with the President of the Board of Agriculture, and I may say that the Department are quite aware that there are two dangers in regard to this question: one the danger of the Army, with which my noble friend has dealt so ably, and the other the danger of infection being imported from Ireland. I am happy to be able to announce to your Lordships that my right hon. friend the President of the Board of Agriculture has arranged for a conference to take place between the authorities of the Board of Agriculture in London and the authorities of the Board of Agriculture in Ireland, and I feel confident that the precautions they will take will have the effect of stamping out the disease, both in England, where it is almost stamped out, and in Ireland, where it has been more prevalent.
§ EARL SPENCERI should like to ask whether the Board of Agriculture have made any attempt to trace the civilian 842 cases of this disease to the centres from which they came. I was responsible for one of the rumours to which the noble Earl referred. In the few remarks that I made the other day, I said that I was aware of a distinguished officer who had come back from Africa, who knew the state of the depots there, and who himself had gone to the authorities and warned them. I quite admit that he did not name this disease, and I did not say that he did; but he warned them that mange, glanders, farcy, and other diseases were very prevalent in Africa, and asked whether they could get the horses they required in England without taking those back from Africa. The authorities replied that they could, and he implored them not to have any of these horses back. That was the rumour to which I referred. The noble Earl says that no such information or statement was known at the War Office. I have a private letter which I can show him, and then if he likes he can make inquiries and ascertain whether or not the information is accurate. Then we should like to know what are the military centres where this disease existed. Returns are constantly made with reference to diseases in the country, and the centres are given in order that the people in the district may be more on their guard. I gather that the noble Lord is prepared to grant the Return which my noble friend desires, and, if it is not too late, I should like to ask whether he has any objection to giving the names of the military centres where the disease has broken out. That is really very important from the point of view of securing that proper attention should be given to this serious disease in the country. I am glad my noble friend opposite has given us an assurance that the Board of Agriculture are taking up this matter vigorously, because the disease has certainly not been confined to military centres. I know the Board of Agriculture deal vigorously with matters of this sort, but, although the number of civilian cases is diminishing—
§ EARL SPENCERStill, in view of what my noble friend has said with 843 reference to the uncertainty which, prevails as to the incubation of the disease, the danger yet exists amongst us. I, therefore, hope the Board of Agriculture and the military authorities will continue their efforts to exterminate the disease.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (The Marquess of LONDONDERRY)Your Lordships will remember that on two previous occasions, on Questions put by noble Lords opposite, we have discussed the existence of this very serious disease which undoubtedly exists, chiefly in Ireland, and to a certain extent in England. I do not for one moment deprecate such discussions, because they show beyond all doubt a great apprehension that unless it is coped with there is a danger of the disease spreading and doing irreparable damage to our horses in England and in Ireland. But, if I may venture to say so, with all due respect to noble Lords opposite, on each occasion when the matter has been discussed Questions have been put which were not on the Paper, and which consequently it was difficult for the representatives of the Departments concerned to answer off-hand. My noble friend the Under-secretary of State for War did his utmost to answer the Questions put by the noble Lord opposite, and my noble friend who represents the Board of Agriculture on this occasion proved to your Lordships that the care which has been taken and the endeavours which have been made to repress and exterminate the disease have not been altogether ineffectual. I do not for one moment complain of Questions which arise on the spur of the moment being put; I can only say on behalf of my colleagues that the Board of Agriculture will not relax their efforts either in this country or in Ireland to stamp out this disease, which we all agree is of a most serious character. With regard to the Return asked for, my noble friend who represents the War Office desires me to say that he will communicate with his colleagues and endeavour to place the required information at the disposal of your Lordships.
§ LORD TWEEDMOUTHI do not know whether the noble Marquess thoroughly apprehended the Question of my noble friend Earl Spencer. My noble friend wanted to know whether there would be given the names of the military centres from which the disease spread. He thought it very desirable that that information should be given in order that it might be known whence there was a danger of the disease arising.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYPerhaps I did not make myself very clear, I meant to say that in the Return would be included the information which I understood my noble friend opposite to ask for.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREWe can certainly give a Return showing the depots at which the cases occurred, but I do not know whether we can say where the disease spread from.
§ LORD BURGHCLEREWill the representative of the Board of Agriculture inform me whether the inspectors of the Department traced the civilian outbreaks, and to whom they traced them? What I want to arrive at is how the disease spread.
LORD WOLVERTONI shall be happy to reply if my noble friend will put a Question down to that effect.
§ LORD BURGHCLERECertainly.