*THE EARL OF MAYOrose "To ask His Majesty's Government—(1) What steps have been taken and are being taken to enforce the regulations laid down in the Circular of 1904, respecting epizootic lymphangitis, issued by the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction (Ireland); (2) How many cases are at present known to exist in civilian stables; (3) How many horses have been destroyed, and how many are now in quarantine."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, on June 30th I drew attention to the outbreak of epizootic lymphangitis in Ireland, and I do not wish to say anything now with regard to the introduction of the disease through the importation of infected horses. The replies which the noble Earl the Under-Secretary of State for War gave me on June 30th were satisfactory, inasmuch as he stated that the military authorities had succeeded n stamping out the disease in military stables, and had not had a case since October, 1904. So far, so good. But the noble Earl admitted that he believed the disease was spreading in civilian stables in Ireland. I do not say that it is spreading to an enormous extent, but the worst feature is that the local 221 veterinary surgeons are uncertain in many cases whether horses suffering from epizootic lymphangitis are merely suffering from ordinary farcy. The Department of Agriculture issued a circular, but it is difficult to enforce it for several reasons. One is that the compensation offered when a horse is killed is half the value of the horse up to £40, and this you may imagine, when you come to deal with valuable horses, is practically of no account at all. The danger, therefore, is that the disease is concealed and there is a chance of its spreading.
There is another point in the circular which the Department has issued—namely, that animals infected have to go into quarantine for six months. I know of one case in the county of Kilkenny. A gentleman there has turned out his horses to grass; they are all confined in one field. He has some polo ponies, and he has just received orders that the ponies are not to be removed from the yard, I believe not even from the boxes in which they are actually kept. Now, that is an impossible state of affairs. They have only to remain long enough in the boxes and they will die; and this is all through his buying from an officer in the Army a mare which developed epizootic lymphangitis and had to be shot. It is no good making complaints unless one suggests a remedy, and I might humbly suggest this to the Department of Argiculture, that there should be a compulsory inspection of all horses, mules, and, perhaps donkeys, that exist in the areas where the disease started amongst military horses. That would be a very good beginning. And then I would suggest that a small Commission of expert veterinary surgeons, one or two from the Department, and two or three at least from the military authorities, should be appointed.
The military veterinary surgeons seem to know more about this matter than anybody else, and I hold in my hand a book on the subject which is called "A Treatise on Epizootic Lymphangitis," by Captain Pallin of the Army Veterinary Department. Armed with this book and the circular issued by the Veterinary Department of the Board of Agriculture, there is no reason why a local veterinary 222 surgeon could not, at all events, report a case of suspicion to the Commission in Dublin, and then a member of the Commission could go down and inspect the animal. If that was impossible, some of the discharge from the ulcers of the animal affected could be sent and microscopically examined. The circular, as I have said, mentions that there should be six months quarantine; but in the order issued by the veterinary surgeon of the Department of Agriculture he says the disease is so dangerous, and there is so little chance of remedy, that the best thing to do is to shoot the animal. Therefore, I say that this instruction and the order for six months quarantine do not run together. It seems ridiculous that the head veterinary surgeon of the Department should say horses should be destroyed at once, and that the Department should say they are to be quarantined for six months. I beg to put the. Questions standing in my name.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (The Marquess of LONDONDERRY)My Lords, I am perfectly certain that everyone who knows Ireland will recognise the great importance of the horse - breeding industry in that country, and how necessary it is, if the fame of the breed is to be maintained, and add, as it does, to the revenue of that country, that every care should be taken to stamp out disease. My noble friend has told your lordships that it is not necessary to allude to the manner in which the disease arose in Ireland. He did not deprecate the manner in which the authorities in Ireland were endeavouring to cope with it and stamp it out.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYThe noble Earl the Undersecretary of State for War rightly stated, in reply to the Question put to him by Lord Mayo the other day, that the military authorities were doing their best to stamp out the disease, and I hope I shall show before I sit down that the Department of Agriculture, who 223 are, of course, responsible in this matter from the civilian point of view, are also doing their utmost to exterminate it. The circular alluded to by my noble friend is that of March, 1904. In reply to his first Question—namely, what steps have been taken and are being taken to enforce the regulations laid down in this circular?—I have to say that precautions respecting confirmation by microscopic examination of cases of the disease, isolation of infected animals and their subsequent slaughter, and thorough cleansing and disinfecting at places of outbreak have constituted part of the ordinary procedure which the local authorities in co-operation with the Department have followed. And, in addition, restrictions have been applied to a number of horses suspected of being exposed to infection as the result of these out-breaks. These restrictions are included in the Order of July 4th, 1905, prohibiting the movement of horses out of the counties of Kilkenny or Waterford, and providing that no other horses except those within the counties of Kilkenny or Waterford should be exhibited at shows held in those counties. The disease, so far as I can gather, has been confined to Kilkenny and Waterford, and that is the reason why these special regulations were made applicable to those counties. I think the authorities have gone a long way in preventing the spread of this most disastrous and dangerous disease.
With regard to the second Question, I have to say that only one apparent case of the disease is known to exist at present in civilian stables in Ireland. The local authorities have been advised to destroy that animal and two other horses that have been kept in the same stable, and the Department have been this day informed that the local authorities have ordered the slaughter of those three horses. In reply to the third Question—namely, how many horses, have been destroyed and how many are now in quarantine?—I have to say that twenty-five horses and one ass have been destroyed on civilian premises in Ireland up to the present time in connection with outbreaks of this disease. Three further horses, as I have just told your Lordships, have now been ordered 224 to be slaughtered. Sixty-two other horses and two asses are now in quarantine. Your Lordships would no doubt wish that more drastic measures had; been taken, but when the value of the horses, and the fact that the price paid when they are compulsorily slaughtered is small, are considered, I think your Lordships will admit that the authorities are doing their best, according to the means at their disposal, to stamp out the disease. I repeat that the Irish Executive sympathises with the view the noble Earl takes, and can assure him that every step will be taken not only to prevent the spread of the disease, but to entirely stamp it out.
§ EARL SPENCERMy Lords, I was unable to be here when my noble friend opposite asked this Question the other day, or I should have spoken upon it. This is a very serious matter, and I regret that Ireland, with which I was so long connected and where I know the value of horses is so great, should have suffered considerably already by this disease. I am glad to hear from the noble Marquess that the Department are taking very vigorous steps to stamp it out. In times gone by I have had a good deal to do with contagious diseases among different animals, and I have noticed that when there is a disease of the virulence which is said to belong to this disease the mostdrastic remedies are certainly the cheapest in the end; and I, therefore, sincerely trust that the authorities will not shrink from applying the drastic remedy of slaughtering animals to the fullest extent which the circumstances require.
I cannot help thinking that very serious responsibility rests on certain departments in His Majesty's service in regard to this matter. I am informed that officers, on their return from South Africa, reported to the proper authorities at the War Office that very serious disease indeed existed at the depots for horses in South Africa. They felt so strongly about this that one distinguished general officer to d me they asked the authorities whether they could re-horse the Army with animals bought in this country, and on receiving a reply in the affirmative they said that that being so the War Office ought not to have one single horse back 225 from the depots in South Africa, which were full of disease. If this advice was given, the Government incurred great responsibility by allowing these animals to come here at all. I would like to know how many military centres have had the disease, and also whether a good many horses were not found to be diseased during the voyage home from South Africa. I heard that in one case a great many horses were thrown overboard suffering from serious disease.
It may be said that, as the Government consider they are coping successfully with this disease it is not necessary to refer to what took place before; but we know this, that if a centre of such disease is set up it takes a long while to make certain that the disease has not spread to civilian as well as military establishments. There may be a time of quarantine after which one may be sure that animals in contact have not become infected, but people when they have disease among their horses do not always report it. Sometimes they do not know it; and, therefore, you cannot be quite sure, even after a certain time, that you are safe in the neighbourhood of one of these military depots where the disease existed. I do not know whether the Government will be willing to state how many cases have occurred in the United Kingdom, and whether I am correct in saying that the caution given by officers on their return from South Africa was neglected. If the disease spreads in Ireland it may come over here, because, as we know, a great many horses are brought over from, Ireland to this country. We cannot lay too much stress on the great importance of the utmost vigour being j exercised in stamping out the disease.
§ LORD TWEEDMOUTHMy Lords, I associate myself with every word of the speech of my noble friend who has just sat down as to the necessity of dealing with this subject in a most drastic manner. We were told on a former occasion, and again to-day, that in military establishments the disease has been prevented from spreading and entirely stamped out. That has been accomplished because the military authorities can act drastically. There 226 is nobody to object or to raise questions s of the value of the horses, and the horses are quickly destroyed and the source of infection removed. The noble Marquess hinted at the point I am going to raise. I refer to the question of compensation. I He said the amount received for compensation in cases where horses were killed did not bear a very large proportion to the real value of the animal. If that is the case, naturally people who have a horse which they think may have become infected do not report it at once, because they know that if the animal is slaughtered they will get as compensation a very small proportion of its value. That is false economy indeed. I do not say that you ought to go out of your way and pay high prices for worthless stock. That would be absurd. But when a horse is valuable, I think a proper estimate should be made, and the animal should not have a chance of being spared simply on account of its value. I hope the Government will accept the suggestion I have made, and that they I will be liberal in granting compensation I in respect of animals that are slaughtered, and will announce the fact that they will do so provided it can be shown that the animals are of the value stated.
§ LORD BURGHCLEREMy Lords, I regret I do not see the noble Lord who represents the English Board of Agriculture in his place, for I should have liked to ask him, with regard to this very serious horse disease, what precautions have been taken to safeguard this country from its incursion. I desire to press on the Government for some reply as to what extent this particular disease has been prevalent in the military depôts, because I think that information would be of immense service to the Board of Agriculture in this country in determining what danger there may be to our horses here. Probably some member of His Majesty's Government will be able to give me the information, or I will put down a Question on the subject to be answered at a future date.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYMy Lords, if we had had the slightest idea that this question would have taken this large aspect, and information would 227 have been asked with regard to England, undoubtedly those qualified to address your Lordships on this subject would have been present; but I attended to reply to the specific Questions put by the noble Earl. The noble Earl opposite went a great deal further, and asked questions with regard to the bringing back of horses from South Africa. I am not in a position at the present moment to answer that Question. I had thought, after the discussion which took place on a previous occasion, that it was agreed that the replies given by the noble Earl on behalf of the War Office were satisfactory. I certainly think this question is one of very great importance. I remember we had a disease in the North of England called pink-eye, which took all the energies of the authorities to stamp out; and having had experience of that myself, I can assure the noble Lord that he has my sympathy in this matter, and if he will raise a debate on this question. I can assure him that he will be adequately replied to. With regard to the question of compensation, I do not wish to be understood to say that any animal which might be likely to be considered suffering from, or capable of conveying, the disease should be spared, however expensive or valuable it may be. What I wished to convey was that I thought great caution should be exercised before animals of great value were sacrificed which had not suffered from the disease at all. I can assure your Lordships that the Veterinary Department in Ireland, and I imagine also in England, are instructed to examine most closely into the details of this terrible disease, and nothing is wanting on the part of the authorities to deal effectively with it.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of ONSLOW)My Lords, although the representative of the English; Board of Agriculture is not in the House to deal with the points raised by the noble Lord opposite, I doubt very much, even if he had been here, whether he could have given him much satisfaction. The fact of the matter is, this is a disease which has been almost wholly imported into this country by Army horses, and the information which I think we all desire to know is to what extent the disease is prevalent amongst military horses, 228 and what precautions are being taken in the military depôts to prevent the spread of the disease to horses the property of civilians. I notice that the noble Earl the Under-Secretary of State for War has just come into the House, and it may be that he will be able to give us some information upon the question, which is primarily one for the War Office and not for the Board of Agriculture, although the Board of Agriculture is the guardian of the health of our horses, I flocks, and herds.
*THE UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Earl of DONOUGHMORE)I have not got the English, figures with me, but my impression is that there are very few cases in the Army now. We rather pride ourselves that in the Army we have stamped out the disease. We have had no case is Ireland since October, 1904, and I do not think we have had many cases in England lately. I shall, however, be very happy to make inquiry.
§ LORD BURGHCLERECan the noble Earl say whether he has had any communication with the English Board of Agriculture on the subject?
*THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREI cannot answer that Question offhand, but I will be prepared with an Answer if the noble Lord will put the Question down for Thursday.
§ LORD HENEAGEAre we to understand that there have been cases amongst Army horses in England as well as in Ireland?
*THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREI think the figure given last year was about 300 odd; but again I am speaking entirely from memory.
THE EARL OF MAYOI may mention, for the information of noble Lords, that the Army statistics up to July 28th, 1904, show that in England there had been twenty-one centres of infection and in Ireland nine. There were thirty-two cases cured, 254 horses had been destroyed, and 108 remained; so that in England at that time there were twenty-one centres of infection.