LORD MONKSWELLMy Lords, I rise, in accordance with the notice standing in my name on the Paper, to move for a Return of the number of white men employed in the erection and preparation of Chinese compounds in the Rand; and to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies how long the employment of these men will last, whether any provision for their further employment has been made, and whether they are included in the list of those employed in and about the Rand mines; and also, having regard to statements that have appeared in the public Press, to ask whether rock-drilling by white labour is being superseded by the employment of coloured labour, and, if so, how far this change can proceed without infringing the provisions of the labour Ordinance against the employment of Chinese labour in skilled work.
In submitting this Motion I desire to say a few words to guide the noble Duke in the reply which he will make. In the first place, I am happy to be able to congratulate the noble Duke and His Majesty's Government on the increased sanitation in the mines and the consequent diminishe death rate, and I can assure the noble Duke that my object, and my only object, in moving this Motion is to elicit information that will guide public opinion in expressing an informed view with regard to the merits or otherwise of the Chinese Ordinance. I have not the slightest intention of raising any further discussion on this Ordinance, which was debated pretty fully in both Houses of Parliament last year. The noble 1278 Duke will no doubt have observed that I omitted all matters of Party contention from my notice of Motion. I do not, for instance, say a word about the wife and children question, nor do I say anything about the limitations in the number of Chinese. The Secretary of State for the Colonies in another place has given answer on these two subjects, and I am afraid it is not probable that the noble Duke will be able to add anything material to those answers. Therefore, I have not troubled him in the matter, but it may very possibly be that either on this occasion or on some future occasion noble Lords behind me may raise this question, and may even wish to take the opinion of your Lordships upon it. No doubt it is the case that part of the information which I desire was asked for only very recently in the House of Commons; but, my Lords, it appears to me that the answers given to these interrogations in the House of Commons by the Secretary of State were not very full and not very satisfactory, and I hope and believe that the noble Duke will give me fuller and more satisfactory replies.
Without going into the merits of it, the Government case with regard to the importation of Chinese labour is very largely based, and properly so, upon their contention that white labour, at all events skilled white labour, whatever may be the case with unskilled white labour, will be, and has been, rather increased than otherwise by the importation of Chinese. If that is, as it clearly is, the contention of the Government, surely it is very important to know how many white labourers, particularly white skilled labourers, are now employed in the construction and maintenance of the Chinese compounds. The Secretary of State has merely told us in general terms that some white labour is so employed. He does not give us the number. I want the number, and I want to know what has been done to secure that these men, when their temporary employment is finished, have something else to do. With regard to rock-drilling, it seems to be the intention of the mineowners to do away as far as possible, if not absolutely, with skilled labour in this work, for we have it on the 1279 authority of Mr. Gillam, himself the chairman of the Van Ryn Mine, that when the Chinaman has been taught how to drive hand-drills, machine-drills will be absolutely superseded, and that view was also taken by Mr. Albu on January 18th last. The Secretary of State, too, acknowledges that the proportion of white men to black or coloured men has been steadily decreasing and is likely to still further decrease in the future. What is taking place with regard to rock-drilling raises the question—the vital question to white workmen in South Africa—of the demarcation between skilled and unskilled labour.
The question of overseers was debated last year to some extent in the House of Commons, and opinion runs extremely high in the Transvaal with regard to yellow and black labour ousting white labour, especially skilled white labour. With regard to overseers, very intemperate language has been used in the Transvaal, language which I do not in the least defend, but I will quote one specimen of it in order that your Lordships may realise how strong the feeling is in this matter. The president of the Miners Association expressed his opinion on the question in the following words, which were quoted by Mr. Malcolm, M. P., who is very much in favour of Chinese labour—
With regard to the introduction of Chinese, they were now informed that they were bringing overseers with them, but if such a state of things took place after the public statements made by Lord Milner and Sir George Farrar, they could write those gentlemen down as being the greatest and most arrant liars of the day.I hope that language is exceptional, but it at all events shows very strong and high feeling in the matter. When the Secretary of State is asked any question with regard to this line of demarcation between skilled and unskilled labour, and when he is asked whether any particular operation is skilled or unskilled labour he always shelters himself behind the plea that it is not for him to say whether or not certain work is unskilled labour, and that the skilled labourers on the Rand are perfectly capable of taking their own part in the matter. It seems to me rather doubtful whether the employment of these overseers is not an infringement of the Ordinance. At all events, Chinese overseers are there, and 1280 the skilled labourers have not been able to prevent their importation.It is perfectly certain that the unskilled labourers are quite helpless, and it is equally certain that the Rand mineowners intend they shall remain perfectly helpless. The skilled labourer stands in a somewhat stronger position, but I very much doubt whether he is able to hold his own against the enormous influence wielded by the mineowners. I should like to ask the noble Lord opposite, Lord Harris, whether he, believes that in the event of any skilled labourer or any combination of skilled labourers taking steps to get the mineowners fined £500 for a breach of the Ordinance, that skilled labourer or that combination would ever get another job on the Rand. I very much doubt it. Surely, while the Transvaal remains a Crown colony, it is the duty of the Secretary of State to see that the Ordinance is properly enforced. He cannot shelter himself behind the plea that the white men can look after themselves. Your Lordships may, perhaps, have thought that I ought to have left it to Members of the House of Commons, to ask these questions, and not troubled your Lordships with the matter. I have ventured to put these questions in this House because there is in the House of Commons an atmosphere of reticence over the Treasury Bench which it is extremely difficult to penetrate. That atmosphere of reticence has not permeated this House; on the contrary, we find it not in the least difficult to get from noble Lords on the front bench opposite the frankest possible declarations. I trust, therefore, that the noble Duke the Under-Secretary may be not only willing but anxious to give me every information that it is in his power to obtain.
§ Moved, "That an Humble Address be presented to His Majesty for a Return of the number of white men employed in the erection and preparation of Chinese compounds in the Rand."—(Lord Monkswell.)
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Duke of MARL-BOROUGH)My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord who has just spoken that it is our wish, so far as lies in our power, to give him all the information he 1281 desires with regard to the, number of Chinese employed in South Africa, and the manner in which they are treated. I do not know that the attitude of the occupants of the Treasury Bench in the House of Commons has been very reticent upon this matter of Chinese labour. I read with great care the debate in another place the other night, and it seemed to me that the Secretary of State gave all the information that was at his disposal; and, further, I think he disposed altogether of the objections and criticisms of the Members of the Party to which the noble Lord opposite belongs. I will not, however, discuss what took place in the other House. It would be improper to do so. But I fear I cannot add very much to the information which the Secretary of State has already given in regard to the particular questions which the noble Lord has put to me to-day.
The noble Lord wishes to know the number of white men employed on the Rand to-day in erecting and looking after the compounds. At present we have no official information as to the exact number of men employed there, but the Secretary of State is perfectly willing that a communication shall be sent to Lord Milner asking him to furnish us with a Return, and I can assure the noble Lord that as soon as we receive it he will have full access to it. He is perfectly right in assuming that the white men engaged on the compounds are included in the gross total. The noble Lord went on to ask whether we could give any information as to how long the employment of these men will last. I confess I think that is a remarkable question, to put to us. After all, no employment is of a permanent character. The humblest man in this country cannot tell how long his employment will last, and what applies to the humblest individual applies equally to those who are in more important positions. In fact, noble Lords opposite have reminded us on more than one occasion that the employment of those who are now responsible for the government of this country may terminate at no distant date. Since, therefore, all employment is of a transitory, and not of a permanent character, I do not see how the noble Lord can expect us to be able to tell him how long 1282 these men will be employed on the compounds. All I can say is that their employment will depend largely on the future development of the country. If the country is prosperous, as we believe it will be, and if the mining industry develops as it has done, there is every chance that these men will participate in the further development and secure continuous employment.
Then the noble Lord asked whether any further employment has been arranged for these men. In this country, with all the great resources and all the wealth at the disposal of the State, we yet see a great number of people who are unemployed, who cannot be guaranteed employment permanently; and how much more likely is that to obtain in the case of a country like the Transvaal, which has only lately got over a severe war, the finances of which have only lately been placed on a sound and proper footing, and in which the mining industry itself is hardly re-established. The questions which the noble Lord has put to me are simple in themselves, and, in a way, are almost insignificant, but I think underlying them is a desire to raise the question of the employment of whites in the mines in South Africa. The noble Lord who moved the Motion now before the House and noble Lords opposite have always held that the importation of Chinese labour into South Africa would probably curtail the employment of white men. They know now from the statistics that have been published that their contention was not altogether well founded. Accordingly they seem anxious to shift their ground. They admit, I understand, that white labour has increased in consequence of the augmentation of unskilled labour, but they say that it is only of a temporary character, and that these men are only employed in the building of the compounds and in keeping them in order.
I think the best proof in a matter of this sort is to refer to the figures, and I think the figures conclusively show that the direct result of the increase of unskilled labour has been enormously to increase the number of white men employed in the mines. In May last, before the arrival of the Chinese, there were, in round figures, 77,000 Kaffirs 1283 and 13,000 white men employed in the mines. Since then there has been an increase every month in the number of Kaffirs and white men employed. In January last there were 27,000 Chinese in the mines, very nearly 90,000 Kaffirs, or an increase of 13,000 since May last—your Lordships will notice that the introduction of Chinese has led to the supplementing, and not the superseding, of Kaffir labour—and 15,500 white men. I do not think the noble Lord opposite can maintain that all these 2,500 additional white men are employed in completing and maintaining the compounds in which the Chinese live. I think it is reasonable to assume that a large proportion of them are undoubtedly employed in industries in the mines. The noble Lord said that the Secretary of State had admitted in another place that the ratio of white men to coloured had decreased. I do not know where the noble Lord found that statement. My recollection is that the Secretary of State said that whereas before the war the ratio was 119 white men to 1,000 black, to-day it was 143 to 1,000.
LORD MONKSWELLThe Secretary of State said it was perfectly true that the proportion of white to coloured labour was now 143 to 1,000, but it had been as large as 200 to 1,000, and was gradually going down. He said the reason why there was such a large amount of white labour employed soon after the war was that there was then no importation of Chinese labour. Less white labour is employed now than then.
§ THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHI think the real point is that very often, in order to get a proper complement of men, a great number of white men were employed on a mine in starting it, as a sort of nucleus, and sufficient unskilled labour had to be added afterwards. When that condition obtained, undoubtedly the ratio of white men to coloured was higher than the normal ratio. I would revert for a moment to my statement that there are 2,500 more white men employed now than in May last. These men, it is estimated, earn at least £1 a day, and if you multiply that number by 365 you arrive at a total of over £900,000 being paid in wages to 1284 white men in excess of what was paid previous to the importation of Chinese. I think that must be a matter for congratulation as helping to promote the prosperity of the white population in South Africa. The noble Lord went on to discuss the question of rock-drilling and hand-drilling. As I understand, in machine-drilling one skilled man works two machine-drills and employs two coloured men on each drill—in other words, one skilled man employs four unskilled labourers. The noble Lord is under the impression that machine-drills are going to be superseded by hand-drills. I have always been under the impression that hand-drilling was more expensive than machine-drilling.
§ THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHI am afraid I am not competent to discuss the matter with my noble friend. Perhaps Lord Harris can throw some light on the subject. I should certainly have thought that a machine-drill, run by a skilled man, was more economical than a hand-drill run by unskilled labour. We have received no information of any sort which would support the belief of the noble Lord that in the matter of rock-drilling skilled labour is to be superseded by unskilled labour; there is not a vestige of evidence of an official kind, so far as I am aware, which would support his statement. I would remind the noble Lord that the Ordinance defines unskilled labour as labour usually performed by persons belonging to the aboriginal races or tribes in South Africa, and in the schedule there are forty or fifty employments which they must not undertake, and rock-drilling is especially included. It must be remembered, moreover, that there is a severe penalty—a penalty of £500—for any infringement of the rules of the Ordinance. There is a large and vigilant white population in South Africa who would be extremely irritated if by any process the mineowners managed to supersede white men by Kaffirs and Chinese, and there is ample provision in the Ordinance by which the white population can protect themselves. The noble Lord knows that a superintendent or inspector may at any time enter the 1285 premises of the mines, and, if there are any complaints, either by the unskilled labourers or the white men, it is his duty to report those complaints, which are then laid before the magistrate of the district. Therefore, if the noble Lord's contention is correct, there is every machinery under the terms of the Ordinance for the infliction of a penalty upon those who in any way violate its terms.
The noble Lord regretted that we did not express our opinions more definitely as to whether or not certain terms of the Ordinance had been broken. I have always understood that the powers of the Executive and of the legal tribunals in this country were totally distinct. When once the Executive have passed and sanctioned a law, it is the duty of the Judges and magistrates to interpret that law in the way they think right and proper; and if that is so in this country it is equally so in South Africa. If anybody breaks the terms of the Ordinance it is not for us in this country to express an opinion upon it. An expression of opinion by the noble Lord, or, indeed, by a member of His Majesty's Government, would not in any way influence the decision of the Judge or the magistrate on the spot. Therefore, I do not think the noble Lord can reasonably ask me to state whether I think that any terms of the Ordinance have in any way been infringed. That is a matter entirely for the magistrate in South Africa to decide. Let me say, in, conclusion, that, so far as we are aware, none of the terms of the Ordinance have been infringed. We know that the number of whites has largely increased owing to the importation of unskilled labourers, and, so far as we are aware, there has been no attempt to oust the white man from his work and to put in his place Kaffirs or Chinese.
LORD HARRISMy Lords, when I sat in a more prominent place on the front Government Bench I was accustomed to have questions shot at me, and I was prepared to answer them, but now that I occupy a more modest seat on the back benches it is certainly embarrassing to have questions put to me from both front benches—questions not merely on highly technical matters con- 1286 nected with mining, but on purely hypothetical points. The noble Lord opposite asked me what chances workmen would have of future employment if they took part in an agitation for the conviction of their employers for having allowed coloured men to do work which they are forbidden to do under the Ordinance. I am afraid I cannot answer a conundrum of that kind. My impression is that the working men in South Africa are just as independent and just as capable of combination as the working men in England. I do not know of any difference. Possibly they may be even more independent in the freer atmosphere of a colony than in a country so hidebound as England. I can assure the noble Lord of this, that their trade union is very careful of their interests, and in practical working there would be no necessity whatever for a skilled workman to expose himself to any risks of the kind.
The introduction of Chinese is governed by law, and it is the business of the Government to see that the law is obeyed. They have the right to send inspectors into the mines to ascertain that the law is being complied with, and I imagine that an inspector would report a company who were allowing coloured men to do work forbidden by law. So far as I understand, the Chinese are not doing any work that the Kaffir did not do before in connection with rock-drilling. My impression is that there is not at this moment in the market any such thing as a hand-drill; that is to say, a drill that can be worked by one man. Possibly there is something coming forward which may be worked more economically; it has not yet been proved, but I believe it is under experiment now. At present the bulk of the work is done by the large drills, on which several coloured labourers and a white overseer work. I cannot help thinking that there has been some mis understanding about the term "overseer." I should have thought that, as regards the work underground, "ganger" would have been the more correct term to use for the man who supervises the placing of the drill in the stope, the direction of the point and things of that kind.
1287 The overseers who are being imported with the Chinese are men who can speak Chinese and English, and it is absolutely necessary, not only to have men of that capacity, but to have men of extremely good character who are capable of making clear to the Chinese what is wanted of them, and of explaining away any difficulties that may present themselves as regards the conditions of life in the compounds, the conditions of work, and everything connected with this new undertaking of theirs. Speaking from personal experience, I can assure the noble Lord that the greatest care is being taken to select the very best men that are prepared to engage themselves for this work of overseers in the compounds. These overseers have to go underground as well. I can mention one thing which may, perhaps, reassure the noble Lord opposite as to the possibility of Chinamen being put to work that they are not entitled to do under the Ordinance. Quite recently I asked a colleague of mine who has returned from the Transvaal whether the Chinamen were allowed to do any gardening in the neighbourhood of the compounds, and my friend replied—
Oh dear, no. There is such an amount of suspicion as to Chinamen doing work which is not allowed under the Ordinance that they are not permitted to do any gardening for themselves.Perhaps I may be allowed to say one word as to the drop in proportion. The drop, in proportion as the number of coloured labourers increases on the mines, is absolutely certain to increase to a certain degree. The noble Duke spoke of new mines. There are very few new mines starting. The bulk of the new stamps that have been dropped belong to old mines which were worked before the war, but to which possibly new stamps have been added since the war. As further manual labour was forthcoming an additional number of stamps could be dropped. But it is essential, whatever the number of labourers, that they should not drop below a certain proportion of white skilled labour. In many cases, where there were only a few stamps being dropped, the proportion of white to coloured labour was perhaps one to five, but that was largely in excess of what 1288 is necessary when the full number of stamps are dropped, and it is inevitable that the proportion will go from one to five to one to eight, nine, or ten, or perhaps even more, according to the peculiarities of the different mines.I will give your Lordships a practical illustration of what I mean from one particular mine with which I am conversant—the Simmer and Jack Mine, which has the largest number of stamps of any mine on the Rand. To put up the compounds for the Chinese, which cost £40,000, seventy white working men were engaged. In May last the number of white working men employed was 400, while the number of coloured men was something over 2,000. In November, when the compounds had been finished, and any white men in excess of what the mine actually required to work it would have gone, the number of white working men was 575, an increase of nearly 50 per cent., while the number of coloured men, including Chinese, had increased to 5,000. So that, although the proportion of white working men had decreased—that is to say, there were more coloured labourers compared with white men—the number of white men employed had gone up by 50 per cent., and the increase in wages to white men on that mine alone was £3,000 a month.
If the noble Duke is going to ask Lord Milner to answer the conundrum of how long the men who have been employed on the compounds are going to be employed in the future, he might also ask him what, I think, is a more practical question—namely, how many white men employed in South Africa can attribute their employment to the introduction of Chinese? I think Lord Milner would reply that it is a very large number indeed. That is proved by the fact that at a meeting with regard to railways, Lord Milner pointed out that whereas in November last there had been no hope of increasing the length of the railways in South Africa, suddenly something had occurred to create confidence in South Africa, the money was forthcoming, and they were prepared to make a considerable addition to the mileage in that country. What was it that had given confidence? Why, the knowledge that the 1289 one industry in South Africa was going to be allowed to continue and make progress. I must apologise for having occupied the time of your Lordships at such length. I only ventured to rise because I was appealed to, and I conclude by assuring your Lordships that, so far as I know, it is, and has been proved to be, the object of the mineowners, those who manage the mines, to make this introduction of indentured Asiatic labour a thorough success so far as the livelihood of the men themselves is concerned, and, speaking from what I know, I can say that our object is to abide most strictly by the terms of the Ordinance.
§ THE MARQUESS OF RIPONMy Lords, when the noble Duke opposite seemed to complain of the character of the questions asked by my noble friend behind me, I do not think that he was quite so just as we generally find him to those who sit on this side of the House, because it seems to me nothing could be more natural than that my noble friend Lord Monkswell should have asked the Questions on the Paper. Those persons, whether in or out of Parliament, who are such strong supporters of the employment of Chinese labour in South Africa in the conditions in which it is now there employed, have of late been very frequently led to say—I think rather a triumphant expression of the kind fell from the Prime Minister not very long ago—that so far from the employment of Chinese labourers having produced a falling-off in the employment of white men, since Chinese labour was introduced the number of white men employed has increased, and statistics have been laid before Parliament to bear that out.
Now, the first question asked by my noble friend was an extremely natural one. It was, what kind of employment is included in that Return? We all know that compounds have had to be built and arrangements made for the accommodation of the Chinese. The construction of these compounds and buildings would naturally give employment to a considerable number of white labourers, but that does not in the least degree prove that the permanent employment of white labour in the mines in South Africa has been in- 1290 creased by the introduction of Chinese. Of course, the building of these compounds is a temporary business. It may have given, and I daresay has given, a considerable amount of employment at the time, because they had to be put up very rapidly, but it does not in the smallest degree follow, because there has been an increase of white labour for a time in this temporary work, that therefore when that temporary work is finished it will be found that white labour has been permanently increased. Even taking the statistics as they stand and making no deduction for those who are temporarily employed, I take it that the increase of white labour, whatever it has been, has been nothing like in proportion to the increase of Chinese or Kaffir labour. When the noble Duke said it was quite impossible to say how long men might be kept on in their employment I think he misunderstood the object of my noble friend's question on that point. My noble friend did not want to know how long John Smith or James Jones would be kept in the service of any particular employer in South Africa. He wanted to know if the noble Duke could tell him how long the special and temporary work of the erection of these buildings was likely to take.
I was a little surprised to find how small was the information which appears to be in the possession of His Majesty's Government with respect to the details of this matter. Now, whatever may be thought of this question, it is one of importance. It is a question which has greatly interested, I may say excited, the feelings of many persons in this country, and I venture to say that it is a question on which the Secretary of State for the Colonies might, with great advantage, keep himself adequately informed, so that when questions are asked here or elsewhere it may be possible to reply to them without delay. The noble Duke took exception to what was said by my noble friend behind me in respect to the duty of the Executive in regard to any infringement of the Ordinance by the employment of Chinese labour in forbidden trades. The noble Duke seemed to think that my noble friend was asking that the Executive should in some way or other trench upon the duties of Judges or 1291 magistrates. I take it nothing was further from the intention of my noble friend. There is a law, and it may be easily part of the duty of the Executive to prosecute if they think that law is being infringed. There is in South Africa an officer whose business it is, I suppose, to see that the law is properly obeyed, and I do think it is the duty of the Executive Government in South Africa, and if they fail, of the Executive Government here, who are, South Africa being a Crown colony, entirely responsible for what goes on in that country—it is their duty carefully to see that the Ordinance which they themselves passed is carried out.
LORD MONKSWELLMy Lords, I have only a few words to say in reply, for the noble Marquess who has just sat down has been kind enough to take a great deal of that duty off my hands. I would observe, with regard to the somewhat optimistic utterances of the noble Duke as to the future of white labour, that what we contend is that although at present there may be, and is, a considerable amount of white labour employed on the Rand, still the tendency is for that labour to decrease after a certain time. We have heard with regard to other matters that it is the tendency we must look to. Well, in South Africa it is not so much to what is happening to-day, but to the tendency that we must look. We find the chairman of one of the biggest mines on the Rand stating that they are going to replace the machine-drill by the hand-drill. The noble Duke is not particularly well posted as to the difference between the two, but it has been asserted over and over again in the Press that the difference is that in working the machine-drill you must employ very skilled white labour, whilst unskilled labour can work the hand-drill. I think the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees (the Earl of Onslow) said in a debate last year that persons who work a machine-drill get £32 a month. Now, it is the intention of the mineowners to get rid of these men to whom they pay £32 a month, and to substitute what is technically unskilled yellow labour. It is perfectly clear under the Ordinance that Chinamen may work a hand-drill but not a machine-drill, and 1292 the mineowners say they will have the machine-drill done away with and the hand-drill substituted. I was very sorry to hear the statement made by Lord Harris that these wretched Chinamen are not even allowed to work in their own gardens. It seems to me that that is a terribly servile condition of labour.
LORD MONKSWELLI do not understand that a man is necessarily a gardener because he works in his own garden. I hope the Secretary of State will take notice of what the noble Lord has said, and that the wretched Chinaman will have one servile condition the less imposed upon him. The question of the overseers is one which I think might very well engage the attention of the Secretary of State. These men, it seems, are highly skilled men—who speak two languages—Chinese and English. They are not English, but Chinese, and it does appear to me——
LORD HARRISThe men I refer to are not Chinese. They may not be Englishmen, but they are certainly not Chinese.
LORD MONKSWELLIt seems to me that this is a case very much on the border line of the Ordinance, and I should have thought it desirable to take a test case on that matter. On the question of proportion, I understand that the proportion of white men to Kaffirs is one to seven or eight, but that the proportion of white men to Chinamen is about one to forty.
LORD HARRISI think the proportion will be found to be precisely the same, whether Kaffirs or Chinese.
LORD MONKSWELLI am glad to get that information from the noble Lord, but it is contrary to what has appeared in the public Press. One objection taken to 1293 the employment of Chinese, who are so much better workmen than the Kaffirs, is that forty Chinamen can be looked after by one white man, whereas one white man cannot look after more than eight or ten Kaffirs. As the noble Duke has promised that a communication shall be forwarded to Lord Milner asking for the information for which I have moved, I am perfectly willing to accept that, and I withdraw my Motion.
§ Motion, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
§ House adjourned at twenty minutes before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.