*LORD LOVATMy Lords, I rise in accordance with the notice standing in my name on the Paper, to call attention to the proposed reduction of the strength of the Imperial Yeomanry units. The proposal of the War Office is to reduce the force by 120 men per battalion. I should like the noble Earl the Under-Secretary of State for War to give us the reason why this reduction has been proposed, and to state, if it is necessary to insist on this reduction, whether it will not be possible to make some slight modification in the order. I regret to have to make any criticism of the War Office at the present moment, when they are occupied -with so many great and drastic reforms, many of which will undoubtedly put the Army on "a much better footing, but I think that a matter which affects the whole of one of the branches of is Majesty's service cannot be regarded as a mere detail.
It must be remembered that we have experienced a great many changes in the Yeomanry establishment in the last few years. Just before the South African I war the Yeomanry were only 12,000 strong, and were, to all appearance, a moribund force. At the beginning of the war so little confidence was placed in them I that those Yeomen who went to the front had themselves to provide a large portion I of their kit. At the later stages of the war, however, His Majesty's Government could not get hold of too many Yeomen. Immediately after the war ceased the establishment of the Yeomanry was raised to 35,000, and great efforts were 311 made by Yeomanry colonels to raise the force up to the numbers required. Last year the long-expected Yeomanry regulations were published, and. to the horror of those interested in the force, they contained the provision that unless a Yeomanry regiment reached 420 strong it would be liable to disbandment. This year there has been a further revolution. Instead of any idea to keep the force up, the idea seems to be to keep it down. If a commanding officer had over 476 men, having made every effort to get up to the previous strength of 590, he was not until yesterday, when it was notified that the order had been rescinded, to be allowed to receive anything in respect of those men over strength. The rescission of this order is, at all events, a slight modification in the interests of the Yeomanry.
One cannot regard favourably any changes of policy in respect to the Auxiliary Forces unless they are to meet an urgent need. The Auxiliary Forces depend to a very great degree on patriotic sentiment. Those who take part in conducting them are usually very much out of pocket, and the changes of policy which the Auxiliary Forces have suffered from have led to considerable disappointment in all ranks. It is all very well to dismiss War Office I officials at less than a butler's notice, but members of the Auxiliary Forces, who; have not a profession to aim at and no ties to keep them in those forces, cannot be treated in this manner. There are many reasons why the reduction of the Imperial Yeomanry establishment is unadvisable. According to the military textbooks, infantry will suffer in war unless there is at least one mounted man to every six foot soldiers. At present the Imperial Yeomanry establishment is 34,000 strong, and as the Volunteers number 348,000 and the Militia 120,000, this gives one mounted man to every twelve infantry. Apart from military policy there are other reasons why the present moment is not an opportune one for a reduction in the mounted forces of the Empire. First of all, there is a larger proportion of the cavalry regiments in South Africa than there has been before, except during the war, thereby reducing the number in this country. Again, we are aware of the importance of Mounted Infantry, yet one of the most scathing of the criticisms of the Germans in their review of the war was 312 directed to this principle of our mounted infantry taking, as they aptly said, the best men and the best officers from a regiment, thereby lowering the morale of the remainder.
There is a further reason why the Imperial Yeomanry at this moment should not be reduced—it is that the force possesses 25,000 horses trained in the ranks. I do not think that our experience of the Remount Department during the South African War was such that the War Office can afford to give away the chance of obtaining 25,000 horses trained in the ranks in case of war. I cannot think that the proposed reduction is due to any dissatisfaction with the work of Yeomanry officers; but I would point out that majors and senior officers of the Yeomanry have not had a chance of being trained to the standard that they should be trained. At the present moment there is no school for senior Yeomanry officers, and those Yeomanry officers who attend school have to go back to squad drill, although they may be experienced officers who have served for years in a branch of His Majesty's Regular Forces. Nor can I think that the reduction is due to the fact that the Yeomanry have not reached their full strength. If they were given another year, at the present Tate of increase of 1,000 per quarter, I feel confident that they would reach that number. Is it, then, for financial reasons that the order has been issued? If the order is carried out the force will be reduced by 6,000 or 7,000 men, which would mean a saving of about £100,000. For that sum are you going to insult a force which has undoubtedly done very good work in the South African War? I do not think that His Majesty's Government can have fully realised the hardships that will be inflicted on the Yeomanry by this reduction, especially on the newly-formed regiments and those which made a great effort to get up to the strength laid down last year—590. Under the new regulation the first 120 men who come up to r e dismissed in each regiment will be the first 120 attested, probably carefully picked men, a considerable proportion of whom have served in the war. Besides, the question of personnel, all the economic details, arrangement of troops, stores, ranges, drill centres, etc., 313 which the regiments have worked at with an expenditure of great labour and expense, will be thrown out of gear, and will have to be started afresh. A further reason for the existing Imperial Yeomanry establishment: it must be remembered that in time of war that in time of war the wasting of Yeomanry regiments is greater than that of Regulars, from a variety of causes, and there are no Reserves from which to make up the yeomanry strength. I hope, therefore, the strength of the Yeomanry will not be reduced for any temporary cry of financial reform.
If, however, it is essential, for grave reasons, to reduce the Yeomanry, I would suggest that it should be done in the following manner. Let those regiments, some thirty in number, which are well over the 476 strength, or which have brought up their strength to 590, remain at a strength of 590, while those regiments which are now under 476 strength, of which there are twenty twenty-five, could be reduced to a lower level. This step would probably reduce the total force by 3,000 men. It might be worked with another idea, which is very nearly parallel. There are a certain number of regiments which have always clamoured to be worked on cavalry lines, and a certain number which have started off from the first with the mounted infantry idea. The difference between cavalry and mounted infantry is one rather of method than means The difference is really one of rapidity of manœuvre, size of horses, and excellence of riding on the part of the men. Both depend on the rifle as their final weapon. In England there are two classes of Yeomanry regiments —those from the hunting counties and those from the towns or non hunting areas. Your county regiments as a rule are small. They are recruited from the real Yeoman class. The men ride horses which are hunted and they are horsemen On the other hand your town and new Yeomanry, who have gone in for the mounted infantry idea, consist of men who have learnt riding in the riding school. The majority of them have never hunted or ridden over fences Why not recognise that these two classes exist? Some of the smaller regiments which come from the counties 314 would be of valuable assistance to your cavalry regiments, while the men who live in the towns, who are only riders, and not horsemen, could stick to the I mounted' infantry idea. I throw this out as a suggestion. I sincerely trust: that the noble Earl the Under-Secretary will consider the other point I raised— my suggestion for two establishments of Yeomanry.
LORD HARRISMy Lords, I sympathise with nearly everything that has been said by my noble and gallant friend opposite, and I should like to add a word or two to show how hardly the order which has been issued affects some regiments, especially in this year. I must confess that I have no grievance myself, because my regiment has not reached the new maximum; but changes are coming; rather suddenly and unexpectedly now a days in matters military, and I do not know that my regiment may not be affected before another twelve months; are out. Therefore, I should be glad of this opportunity of showing how, from a financial point of view, an order of this kind affects a Yeomanry regiment.
The grant which the Government makes for the contingent fund is not: sufficient, or anything like sufficient, to clothe the men. It is perfectly true that the order of 1901 specifies certain articles which the War Office considers essential, but it only includes one suit of clothes, and I can hardly suppose that the military authorities want the 30,000 Yeomen to go out for sixteen days training, subject to dust and heat and rain, and have only one suit of clothes. Of course, what really happens is that every man has two suits of clothes. The second suit has to be provided somehow or other out of this grant towards the contingent fund,; and the calculation of the War Office is that a Yeomanry regiment ought to be able to cover the cost of clothing the men in three years. As a matter of fact, there are a number of other things be side the men's clothing that have to be found out of this £3, such as headquarters' expenses, postage, and other little items which run away in the aggregate with a great deal of money, and the result is that it is absolutely impossible to keep within the allowances made for those items upon which the contingent grant 315 may be expended. It is absolutely impossible to keep within these grants whilst a regiment is rapidly increasing— that is to say, whilst you have a number of recruits coming in who have to be clothed and turned out at a cost per head of from £5 to £8, the difference depending rather upon whether a regiment has an extravagant second uniform or not. But even if it were possible to cover the cost in the three years, the order that has now been issued has been issued in the third year from 1901, when the great changes that were made in the Yeomanry came into effect. And let me say as regards those changes that, speaking for myself, and, I should hope, for a great many other Yeomanry colonels, we cannot be too grateful to Mr. Brodrick for all that he did for the Yeomanry in that year. He vitalised the force, and the particular grant he made of £5 for the horse brought by the Yeoman—whether he brings his own horse or hires a horse matters little —has made the whole difference of vitalising the Yeomanry; and I am glad to have this my second opportunity of expressing my personal gratitude to Mr. Brodrick for all that he did in that year. Now, three years after, comes this change, and my impression is that in those regiments which have risen rapidly since 1901, and I include my own regiment in that, there is now, in consequence of that rapid increase, a very heavy debt. It is just as well that it should be publicly understood that a great many Yeomanry regiments are very heavily in debt, and a certain proportion of them in debt through no fault of their own. They are in debt because they have rapidly increased, and because the clothing grant is not sufficient to cover the cost in three years.
This order comes just at the time; when there was a chance of those regiments recovering something to pay off I this debt. In this way—if you can get a certain number of men to re-engage or ' to go on serving, their clothing in most cases is good enough to last for another year or two, and perhaps three, and during these extra years when you have not got to re-clothe them you are making: something over the £3 a year, and I anticipate from my own calculations, my regiment having reached its maximum 316 — 476—that I shall now be able to recover something to pay off the debt which I incurred through no fault of my: own. That is all right for me, but how about the regiments that have increased: up to the old maximum? They have got to strike a large number of men off their establishment; they will not get the £3 for those men, and therefore they: lose this chance of paying off a portion of I their debt.
There is a very great hardship in the in case of the officers who have to guarantee these debts. I had a long correspondence last year with the military authorities on this subject, and with great civility, but with great regret, they found them-selves unable to help me. What was the consequence? The only way of getting out of the difficulty was to go to the; bank, but the bank required a guarantee from the officers, and I had to get a certain number of senior officers to assist in a joint and several guarantee that the bank should be refunded if at any time; the War Office chose to disband us. I do suggest that it is a very great hardship that at the third year, just when there was a chance of these regiments recovering something, they should lose this opportunity. I sincerely trust-that if any more changes as regards numbers are in contemplation somewhat longer notice may be given, so as to enable one: to cut one's coat according to one's cloth and regulate one's arrangements I accordingly. I express my thanks to; my noble and gallant friend opposite for coming forward and speaking so I forcibly, and so much to the point, upon this subject, and I am especially glad that he has not been deterred from I addressing the House upon a subject of which he has such a thorough knowledge.
§ LORD GRENFELLMy Lords, I do not rise for the purpose of following the noble Lord with any criticisms on the action of His Majesty's Government in the reduction of the Yeomanry. I have had the great advantage of having held in the past the position of Inspector-General of Auxiliary Forces, and I have lately vacated an Army Corps in which I had a good many Yeomanry regiments. In the past I have had the opportunity of seeing, I think, nearly half the Yeomanry 317 regiments in England, and in those days the inspection of Yeomanry regiments was very pleasant. You arrived on the ground and inspected the regiment; there was a march past, and sometimes it ended in a charge; and, in certain cases, after a charge of Yeomanry I have seen the ground resembling a battle-field. One member of my staff inspecting one of the northern regiments had the good fortune to pick up a gold watch on the field left by a trooper. We all know the difficulties there have been in the Yeomanry in the past, and I only rise to call; attention to the extraordinary change that has come over that force. I had the pleasure of inspecting during last year right Yeomanry regiments in my command, and I cannot say how much I was struck with the efficiency of those regiments and with the manner in which all the various duties, from those of the commanding officered own wards, were carried out. They were regiments which I think any cavalry officer would be proud to command. I do not say they were all raised to the same pitch of efficiency, but the change in the Yeomanry is so very remarkable that I thought I might venture, in the first remarks that I have made in this House, to express: the hope, if I might, that the greatest; consideration will be given to this force,; which has been so lately raised to such a very high state of efficiency.
§ THE EARL OF ERROLLMy Lords, although I have never served in the; Yeomanry myself, I have during the last year or two become intimately connected; with them, both at home and elsewhere. It has been my lot to inspect a great: many Yeomanry regiments in this country. I think I have inspected something like ' twenty-six or twenty-eight regiments altogether—and I have had opportunities also of seeing how they work in the field, and I can thoroughly corroborate everything that has fallen from the noble and gallant Lord who has just sat down. Indeed, I have formed a very high opinion of their capabilities and efficiency. I listened with great attention, and no little sympathy, to the noble and gallant Lord who brought this question before; your Lord ships, and I do hope that the noble Earl the Under-Secretary of State for War, who will answer on behalf 318 of His Majesty's Government, will be able to give him some of the assurances he asked for and calm some of the fears which he expressed. The noble and gallant Lord speaks with all the weight and authority which practical experience in the field and a thorough knowledge of his subject can give, and I do hope that some of his suggestions, even if they are not carried out as a whole, will received the earnest consideration of the Government.
The services of Lovat's Scouts are fresh in your Lordships' memory and I will not allude to them further than to say that those men who served in South Africa formed the nucleus of the very fine body which the noble Lord has raised as his regiment, and I do think that it would be cruel if these men who served their country in war time should, through the new regulations, be the first men to be drafted out of the Yeomanry. The noble and gallant Lord has, I believe, tapped an entirely new district. He has brought together a body of men who, unless we had recourse to conscription, would never be trained in any way to serve the King or to defend their country. Another regiment has been raised in Scotland on somewhat similar lines by another noble Lord. I venture to think the raising of both these corps has been due entirely to the prestige and the great name which these regiments acquired in South Africa, and I think it would be a very great pity to do anything to damp their and our or to interfere in any way with their efficiency. The men in these regiments are of magnificent physique, they are not then narrow-chested youths that we are accustomed to look upon as the recruits of some of the Line regiments. They are officered by Highland gentlemen who very nearly all have had service in the Army, and a great many of whom have served during the war and are perfectly capable of training their men in practical soldiering. In the ranks, too, there are many men who served in the war. These men teach the young idea not only how to shoot, but how to ride and how to scout.
The Yeoman of to-day is a very different man from the Yeoman of some years ago. Even his dress is more practical and more business-like; his training lasts over 319 double the time that it used to, and it is carried out on sound and practical lines. At the present moment no time is wasted in unnecessary marching, but the instruction given is in scouting, in reconnaissance, and in all the practical duties which go to make up a soldier's work in the field. The greatest pains are taken with their shooting. I cannot but think that a man who is trained like this is a very valuable asset to his country. It will be conceded that the more men we have in the country who can ride and shoot the better, and I think the best way of getting these men trained is to send them to the Yeomanry. If your Lordships had seen, as I did, the second lot of Yeomanry who came out to South Africa in the spring of 1901, who could neither ride nor shoot, I am sure you would realise the importance of being prepared for all eventualities. No doubt these men became efficient later on and did very good service in the field, but they were absolutely untrained when they arrived, and could neither ride nor shoot. I think it was a very dangerous experiment and I hope it will never be repeated. You have in the Yeomanry a very fine force, they are capable of expansion, they are of good physique, they are animated by a spirit of patriotism; and I think it would be a pity not to encourage them. As long as we have a voluntary Army it is very unwise to snub the Auxiliary Forces. It would be both foolish and shortsighted not to make use of this very fine raw material that we have to our hands, and I hope His Majesty's Government will not do anything to discourage their training or reduce their numbers.
§ LORD WENLOCKMy Lords, as one who has taken a small share in meeting the demands of the Government in increasing the Yeomanry Forces of this country, I should like to associate myself with most of the remarks that fell from my noble friend Lord Lovat, and I should be very glad if the noble Earl the Under-Secretary of State for War would explain exactly what are the reasons for giving us this sort of rebuff at a moment when we were expecting that we should receive every assistance and encouragement. I should like the noble Earl also to tell us whether it is the intention of the Government not to allow any more new 320 regiments to be formed and whether we are to understand that the maximum now laid down is to be the maxim Lim number of Yeomen in the country in the future. That is an important point to be considered. In my own country, where we were called upon to raise; a third regiment, I believe it is possible to raise a fourth. I found not the slightest difficulty whatever in getting a very large number of eligible men. I may say that I took every able-bodied young man I could, whether he was able to ride and shoot or not. I have only been out one year, but my own regiment was second in the list of Yeomanry regiments in the district for their shooting, and this shows what with careful training can be done in teaching men the use of the rifle.
I also think it is most important that men should know how to feed and take care of horses. I believe a great deal of our troubles in South Africa arose through men not being acquainted with the system of looking after horses. I can tell your Lordships a case in point, which bears rather on this subject. One of my own men, not at all accustomed to horses, was put on one night as stable guard, and he was heard to tell a friend in the morning that he had never had such a terrible night, for no sooner had he managed to get one horse up than there was another one lying down. I need hardly tell your Lordships that that squad was very quiet on parade next morning. The more men that are trained in the Yeomanry the better it will be. The noble and gallant Lord who spoke a moment or two ago (Lord Gren-fell) referred to the Yeomanry as it was in the old days. I am glad to be able also to bear witness to the extraordinary change that has taken place in that force; but if we are to be kept down and our numbers reduced we cannot help looking upon that as an act of great discouragement on the part of His Majesty's Government. I hope the noble Earl will be able to show that the Government have good reasons for such a drastic treatment of this force.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Earl of DONOUGHMORE)My Lords, I can assure your Lordships that there is no one more sincere than I am in expressing gratitude 321 to noble Lords who command regiments of Yeomanry for the excellent work they have done in connection with that force during the last few years, and it is, I am sure, doing no wrong to any Yeomanry colonel when I particularise the noble and gallant Lord who introduced this subject, and say that we are deeply grateful to him for all that he has done. Therefore, it was with very great regret that I heard from the noble and gallant Lord the use of the word "insult" in connection with the attitude of the War Office towards the Yeomanry at the present moment. The noble Lord who has just sat down used the word "rebuff" I hope I shall be able to prove to your Lordships, not only that our intentions have never been to offer the slightest insult to that force or to make any rebuff, but that our actions have been in the other direction. I think the speeches which have been delivered by my noble friends Lord Grenfell and Lord Erroll are sufficient proof of the fact that it is not owing to any shortcomings in the Yeomanry force that this reduction is made. Lord Grenfell has spoken of personal knowledge of eight regiments, and Lord Erroll has had considerable experience, and I am glad to say that the general report we have received this year on the Imperial Yeomanry absolutely supports the statements made by these noble Lords.
It is quite true, as the noble and gallant Lord who initiated this discussion has said, that by making this reduction we do reduce the Estimates by a considerable sum, but it was not in order to effect that saving that this reduction in the force has been made. The real reason is, I think, perfectly plain, and I should have thought it would have been in the mind of every student of the Yeomanry question. Your Lordships have already been reminded by Lord Lovat of the history of this movement. Before the, war the strength of the Yeomanry was some 10,000 or 12,000. I do not think many regiments were over 400 in strength, and many of them were about 200. Then; came the war, and what I will call the Yeomanry movement took place. When; the Estimates for 1901–2 came to be considered the establishment of the Yeomanry was fixed at 35,000, but the noble and gallant Lord did not tell us that in 322 that 35,000—and this fact was made perfectly clear by Mr. Brodrick in the House of Commons—was included a special service section; that is to say, a section which on the outbreak of war was to be immediately drafted into the cavalry. The members of this special service section were to receive a retaining fee of £5 a year, and, though the number of 5,000 was taken that year we never bound ourselves to stick to that number. The rough figure was that it should be about a fourth of the real Yeomanry. A Bill to give effect to this policy was introduced in another place, and it met with such strong opposition that it was withdrawn.
LOBD LOVATWas it ever really seriously contemplated by His Majesty's Government that there should be a special service squadron?
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREI think the Government are entitled to claim that they are serious when they introduce a Bill to accomplish a certain object. That Bill was withdrawn in view of the opposition it met with from Yeomanry officers. I quite realise the reasons for that opposition, and I personally cannot help confessing that I rather held the same opinion myself. However, that Bill was withdrawn. Then we came last autumn to frame the Estimates for this year, and we were face to face with the fact that Parliament had decided that this special service section should not exist. We, therefore, decided at the War Office to make the establishment of the Yeomanry the strength that it approximately was then. We had to consider how the reduction was to be made. It might have been possible for us, I admit, to reduce one or two regiments, absolutely to wipe them out, and to leave the establishment at 590, the number which my noble friend prefers. But I think that would have been a very unpopular move, and it would have been very difficult to make up our minds as to which particular regiments were to be reduced. We had to follow the only other alternative, which was to reduce each regiment by a certain number. That was a perfectly fair alternative, and there was no harm done by making that reduction, for if the regiments had had to keep up men of the 323 special service section those men would leave the regiments the minute war was declared. That is the real reason for the reduction which appears in the Estimates. I certainly would claim, and I think my noble friend will admit it on reflection, that commanding officers are very much better off now in this particular, that if war is declared they go to the front with their regiments complete, just as they have been training them in peace. The best men are not drafted to a Regular battalion.
I now come to a point raised by Lord Harris. I know what a debt of gratitude we owe to the noble Lord for his action during the war. It was due to the noble Lord that the great spur was given which brought on the Yeomanry movement. A small number of his Yeomanry were sent out to Natal, and they did so well that the War Office very gladly did all they could to help on the movement and extend it. In answering the noble Lord I shall be replying also to Lord Lovat, Who "asks Lord Lovat, "are the men who will have to be got rd of? The very best men, because they were the men who came forward first." We ask commanding officers to' make this reduction, but we ask them to make it at the other end. It would not be lair that a good man who is very useful in the regiment should not be allowed to re-engage if he wants to at the end of his first term. This reduction is to be made, and we trust commanding officers will help us to make it, but, as I say, it should be made at the other end. It should be effected by stopping recruits, by refusing to let bad characters re-engage. At the same time we offer no objection whatever to commanding officers re-engaging men they consider of good character who will be useful to the regiment. A circular letter to that effect has already gone out to commanding officers.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREThe noble Lord afterwards unfolded a new plan with reference to the organisation of the Yeomanry. I would naturally regard with very great interest any plan with regard to the Yeomanry brought forward by the noble Lord, but I am sure he would not ask me at once to accept it without consideration. At the same time, I should be very unwilling to decline anything of his off-hand. I can promise him we will consider what he has said this afternoon. I would seriously ask your Lordships to believe that we in the War Office are not unmindful of the good work which has been done by officers of the Imperial Yeomanry during the last few years. I hope that my right hon. friend the Secretary of State has made that clear on more than one occasion; he made it clear in a speech he delivered at Liverpool, and in other speeches delivered since in London. We are actuated by a keen sense of the gratitude the country owes to the Imperial Yeomanry for their services in the late war, and our one effort and one wish is to help in making the force as efficient as possible.
VISCOUNT GALWAYMy Lords, as one who has taken a great interest in the Yeomanry, I should like to make a few remarks upon the speech of the noble Earl the Under-Secretary, and also to join with Lord Harris in thanking the Government for the great assistance they have given in the past to the Yeomanry—I refer especially to the assistance given by the noble Marquess and by Mr. Brodrick. My recollection is rather different from the noble Earl's with regard to the special service squadron. There was a proposal with regard to a special service squadron before a Committee, and the various points as to how it should be raised were discussed. A recommendation was sent from that Committee to the Secretary of State for War, but no distinct proposal on that matter was ever made to the Yeomanry colonels, and I imagine if there had been such a thing it would have been made to the Yeomanry colonels first. A question was raised in the House of Commons with regard to the formation of special service companies of Volunteers, and the proposal was negatived. I presume that it was in consequence of that that any idea of a 325 special service squadron of Yeomanry was dropped. It is a curious argument that the reduction now is in consequence of the falling through of the proposal for the formation of a special service squadron. It seems to me that this is rather an object-lesson to those of us who are connected with the Yeomanry, and, I hope, an object-lesson to the War Office not to attempt to bring about these changes too rapidly. If the War Office wish to have the Auxiliary Forces efficient they must trust the commanding officers to raise the men, and if the commanding officers cannot trust the War Office to know their own minds for more than a few months, they cannot have much confidence in raising the men. The regiment with which I have been so long connected is not affected by this reduction, but, nevertheless, I would seriously put it to the War Office that they cannot possibly attempt to govern the Auxiliary Forces on hard and fast lines from the War Office. Recruiting undoubtedly depends on the personal influence of the officers and noncommissioned officers, and unless those officers have the same encouragement given as ought to be given to the men, I do not see how you can expect that the Auxiliary Forces will flourish. I trust that the kindness which has been shown to the Yeomanry in the past will be extended in the future, and that we shall not have these sudden changes sprung upon us. I hope sufficient time will be given, by the contingent allowance being continued for some years, for regiments to get out of debt, and that we shall do away with the personal responsibility of officers, which is, I think, so much to be deprecated.
LORD MONKSWELLMy Lords, I have only one observation to make on the speech of the noble Earl the Under-Secretary. It is that next to the objection that can reasonably be raised to any sudden and startling change in the action of the War Office is the objection that can be raised to giving a very bad Reason for the change. I am not an expert in this matter. I believe there is a difference of opinion even among military officers as to whether 476 or 590 is the proper strength of a Yeomanry regiment, and if noble Lords opposite think that, without any detriment to the efficiency of the Army, they can, either 326 by an increase in the Regular cavalry or in any other way, make up the number of mounted men required, I am far from saying it may not be desirable to effect an economy where it can be done; but what I cannot understand is the reason given by the noble Earl for this reduction. He says that because the institution of a special service section was negatived by the House of Commons, therefore these regiments are to be cut down by a squadron. He says that is the only reason for this change. I can find no adumbration at all in the speech of Mr. Brodrick in 1901, when he fixed the Yeomanry at 35,000 men, of any suggestion of this kind, and, even if that suggestion was in his mind in that year, three years have since elapsed. Surely it would have been much wiser and much kinder to the Yeomanry not to have allowed them to go on for three years thinking that 35,000 was the establishment, only to find at a very awkward time for them that they are suddenly cut down by 7,000. Surely three years is much too long a time for the authorities at the War Office to take to make up their minds on this question. They have made drastic alterations in the Auxiliary Forces at headquarters without waiting for the Report of the Duke of Norfolk's Commission, and yet we are told by the Under-Secretary of State that it took them three years to make up their minds.
LORD MONKSWELLBut that is what it comes to. During the whole of the three years we had no inkling whatever that the establishment was to be reduced. It does occur to me that in some respects the administration of the War Office is singularly leisurely, and in other respects exceedingly hasty, and while there may or may not be good reasons for this I say that if it was to be made at all and especially if it was to be made for the reason that the noble Earl has given, it certainly ought to have been made before this.
LORD DENMANMy Lords, I only rise to say a word or two by way of, endorsing what has fallen from the noble Lord who has just sat down, I cannot 327 follow the noble Earl the Under-Secretary that the withdrawal of the proposal for the special service squadron has led to this reduction. As far as I remember the Bill for the special service squadron was introduced by Mr. Brodrick in the autumn of the session of 1902. It was then dropped because there was so much opposition to it. Surely that was the time when the military authorities should have made up their minds. It is rather a long time, from the autumn of 1902 to the present moment, to take to make up their minds whether they are to have a special service squadron or not. I am very glad to hear from such experts as Lord Grenfell and Lord Erroll statements as to the efficiency of the Yeomanry at the present moment. As a Yeomanry officer myself I am naturally glad to hear such opinions from such men and I can hardly think that this cutting down of the Yeomanry in the way proposed can be regarded by the force as other than a severe rebuff. The noble Earl the Under-Secretary stated that the War Office owe a great debt of gratitude to Yeomanry officers. It seems to me that the War Office have a very peculiar method of expressing their gratitude. Surely it is not such a very expensive force that they are obliged for the sake of saving £100,000 to reduce—
LORD DENMANThen I cannot see why the War Office should have waited two years before making up their mind. On the question of expenditure, I would only say that Yeomanry officers have to spend a great deal out of their own pockets. For every £1 spent by the Government another £1 is spent by Yeomanry officers, and therefore I should have thought it would be as well, on the ground of economy, to retain the force at its maximum strength.
§ EARL CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think we can congratulate His Majesty's Government on beginning to exercise some economy in public expenditure, though we would not be prepared to say that they are going the right way to work by cutting down the money voted for that 328 gallant service, the Imperial Yeomanry, to whose value so much recognition has been made this afternoon. There was one statement which fell from my noble and gallant friend Lord Lovat which I think the country would be very glad to have affirmed by the Under-Secretary. The noble and gallant Lord said that the Yeomanry now possess 30,000 horses.
§ THE EARL OF ERROLLThe number is 25,000.
§ EARL CARRINGTONWell, we should be very glad to have that absolutely confirmed. I happen to know something about the Bucks Hussars, which has an establishment of 590. Nearly the whole of those men ride hired horses. A yeoman is given, I understand, £5 to hire his horse, or the Government hire it for him. These horses come into camp in a very low condition, and after they have had fourteen days of Government rations they pick up, and at the end of the training look very well indeed. What I should like to know is whether those horse are ridden by different men and counted over and over again like the oxen in South Africa, which were sold to the Government several times over, and finally disposed of at Bond Street prices to feed the troops. It would be satisfactory if we could get an assurance from the Under - Secretary that in the event of the Government hiring horses, once hired is hired for the year, and that a horse ridden four or five times is not counted as four or five horses.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, I only desire to enforce one point before this extremely interesting and instructive discussion comes to an end. I cannot help thinking that some noble Lords who have spoken this evening have not quite sufficiently realised that the reduction which is proposed in the Yeomanry is in the main a reduction not of strength, but of establishment. The two things are very different. The establishment of the Yeomanry for some time past has stood at between 34,000 and 35,000 men. That was the highest establishment to which it sprang during the time of the war, the old establishment, as I daresay my noble friend remembers, having been only about 12,000. 329 That high establishment has never been reached; it has never risen higher than something over 28,000 men, and the intention of the War Office, as I understand, is to make the revised establishment correspond more closely with the actual strength at the present time. It follows, therefore, that the men who will have to be eventually got rid of are not the number by which the establishment and the strength differ, but the number by which the existing strength and the new establishment differ.
How is this reduction to be effected? It has been said by several noble Lords who have addressed us that it is extremely hard upon these Yeomanry regiments that they should be called upon to get rid of trained men, the backbone of the corps, whom it might be impossible to replace. That is a very convincing argument, but it is one which has been met by the War Office. I understand that orders have been issued under which the commanding officers of Yeomanry regiments will be allowed to bring down their strength to the normal establishment gradually, and by stopping recruiting, rather than by getting rid of men who have served for some time, and whom they naturally desire to retain in the force. That seems to me to be an eminently reasonable way of setting to work. Changes of this kind are inevitable, and it is the duty of the Government to bring them into operation in the most considerate manner possible, and I venture to think that the War Office has in this case shown great consideration for the requirements of the Yeomanry. With reference to the abandonment of the proposal for maintaining a certain number of men in the Yeomanry as members of a special service section, some doubt was thrown upon the history of the case as given by my noble friend behind me, but I really do not think there is any doubt about it. I hold in my hand an extract from a speech delivered by the Secretary of State for War the year before last in moving the Army Estimates, and in that speech he announced that it was proposed to offer to men in the Yeomanry, up to a certain number—5,000 in all— £5 a year to place themselves on the list of the Yeomanry Reserve for the purpose of serving abroad in the event of mobilisation.
330 Not only was that statement made by the Secretary of State, but a Bill was introduced into the House of Commons, but in consequence of the opposition which it encountered the Government decided not to persevere with it during the session of that year. I am told that they by no means abandoned it at once, and that the Secretary of State was not without hope of being able to produce a more acceptable measure for the same purpose in another session. That particular scheme has now been abandoned, and it seems to me quite natural that in consequence of its abandonment it should be thought desirable to reduce the establishment of the Yeomanry by a number of men about corresponding to the number of the special service section. Such a reduction was all the more reasonable, because, as I have just pointed out to your Lordships, the actual strength of the Yeomanry never has come within 5,000 or 6,000 men of the authorised establishment. I hope, therefore, noble Lords connected with the Yeomanry will be of opinion that they really have not in this matter any cause of complaint of the War Office, which, on the contrary, as I have every reason to know, most earnestly desires to recognise the very valuable services rendered by the Yeomanry in the past, and to do what they can to render the force more efficient in the future.