*THE EARL OF DARTMOUTHMy Lords, I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if he is now in a 812 position to lay on the Table the Papers promised by his predecessor on 17th May, 1901,†giving the details of the manner in which the £170,000, allocated for Volunteer ranges in the years 1900–1901, has been distributed; and to move for a return of the Papers. I have asked this question because I think it will be interesting to those who take part in the Volunteer movement to know exactly what is being done with the sum that was set aside for their assistance in the matter of rifle ranges some little time ago. It may be in the recollection of your Lordships that in the year 1900 I asked a question on this subject,‡and I was informed that £40,000 had been allocated for, as I understood then, the assistance of those battalions whose ranges had been compulsorily closed. I asked a further question on the same subject in May, 1901, §and was then informed that a total sum of £170,000 had been allocated, I think, out of the Military Works Loans Act for this purpose. At that time, £77,000 had been distributed, and the balance—£93,000—remained to be dealt with; and I hope the noble Earl will be able to tell us to-night how much of that £93,000 still remains to be dealt with, and that he will promise to circulate Papers which will give a detailed account of the manner in which the whole sum has been allocated. I make no apology for having asked the question, as it seems to me that at the present time this is a very important subject to Volunteers generally, because, if our Volunteer forces are to form, as I understand they are to form, an integral part, and a very important integral part, of our home defence, it is essential that they should be in a position to make themselves thoroughly efficient in the matter of rifle shooting. If we can get this information, we shall then be able to form an opinion as to what will be required in the future, and I have no doubt that the noble Earl will be willing to give this information, and also to allow the Papers, for which I move, to be presented to the House.
† See (4) Debates, xciv., 422.‡ See (4) Debates, lxxix., 443.§ See (4) Debates, xciv., 442.813 Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty for Papers giving the details of the manner in which the £170,000 allocated for Volunteer ranges in the years 1900–1901 has been distributed."—(The Earl of Dartmouth.)
THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLYMy Lords, before the Under Secretary; replies to the noble Earl opposite, may I be permitted to ask a question of: which I have given him private notice? I should like some further information than that which has been asked for by the noble Earl who has just sat down—namely, whether any further help beyond these grants can be given to Volunteers to enable them to acquire rifle ranges? To show the position in which a great many Volunteer Corps are placed at the present moment, I will state a case which has occurred in my own neighbourhood. A battalion in North Northamptonshire were turned out of their range in the neighbourhood of Peterborough, and after looking round the district for a long time they found a suitable spot for a new range on my property. They applied to me for leave to have the range made on this land, and, although I must say that, personally, I regarded it as rather a nuisance, I did not think it right to stand in the way of the Volunteers getting the range. I went to the War Office to make inquiry and found that the grant which would be given would be about one-third of the cost of constructing the butts and fitting out the range. This battalion—and I believe most Volunteer battalions in the country are in the same position—is labouring in "Short Street," and the finding of two thirds of the cost of the range is a very serious drain on its resources. But still, the commanding officer thought he would face the difficulty and try and raise money by means of bazaars and the like, or by subscription. With great difficulty I got the tenants who farmed the land where the range was to be made to agree to allow the range to be constructed; it was passed by the War Office, and we thought that all the difficulties were overcome; but I am sorry to say that some of the tenants in the neighbourhood—one 814 of them a gentleman occupying a residential house within about half-a-mile of the proposed range—took a very strong line of action. The particular gentleman to whom I refer wrote to say that if the range was sanctioned ho would give up his house. The question arises whether a valuable tenant should be kept, or whether one should be public-spirited enough, having given the land for a range, to also lose a tenant paying a high rent in consequence. I mention that to show the difficulties facing private owners in trying to meet the wishes of Volunteer corps.
In my opinion these essential requirements for Volunteers can only be provided by the War Office itself in each locality, constructing a range where the Volunteers in that district can learn to shoot. It is almost impossible, if it is loft to private owners, for the latter to surmount the extreme difficulties which they have to meet. Rightly or wrongly, there are enormous objections on the part of residents to the continual firing every Saturday in the summer, at these rifle ranges, and some people consider it such a nuisance that they say they will leave the neighbourhood rather than allow the range to be constructed. There are on the sea coast and in the fens of England places which could be easily acquired where there are few inhabitants, and where this inconvenience would not be so great; but the work must be carried out by the War Office, and for that reason I wish to ask the noble Earl whether, looking to the great public importance of this question—for unless you got rifle ranges for the Volunteers I am certain you will not keep the force together—the War Office cannot go further than it has, and not merely give one-third towards the cost, but itself provide ranges in each neighbourhood for the local battalions.
§ THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Earl of HARDWICKE)My Lords, in reply to the noble Earl behind me I have to say that the War Office have no objection to laying the Papers on the Table that he desires to see laid. I am sorry, however, that I am unable to tell him that the Papers can be laid at once. The £170,000 set aside in 1901 for the purpose of assisting Volunteer corps to acquire ranges was placed in the hands of a Committee of the War Office called the Rifle Range Committee. This 815 Committee considered applications from various Volunteer corps who were anxious to obtain ranges, and in allocating grants they decided that only half of the amount that the range was going to cost, or such smaller amount as the Committee might think sufficient in the special circumstances of the case, should be given. It was also agreed that no money should be paid over until the range was completed. The position at present is as follows. Money has been allocated to nineteen Artillery corps, three Engineer corps, and 154 Volunteer corps, their ranges having been completed. There are many other corps who have had money allocated to them, but have either found it unnecessary to make use of that money, or have not yet completed the work of constructing the ranges. It has also happened that in many instances the estimated amount that the range was going to cost has, on the completion of the work, turned out to be less, and therefore a certain sum has come back to the Committee which they will be able to allocate to other Volunteer corps in the future. At the present moment the Committee have in their hands a sum of about £13,000, and they are now purposing to allocate that amount to other Volunteer corps. I think I can confidently state that in the course of this session we shall be able to lay full returns on the Table of the House showing the manner in which this money has been spent. I hope this statement will satisfy the noble Earl, and that he will be content to withdraw the Motion for Papers to be laid at once.
The noble Marquess opposite has stated a case which I am sure has the full sympathy of myself and others connected with this matter at the War Office, but I must point out to him that one of the Volunteer regulations is that corps shall provide themselves with ranges, and no Volunteer corps is allowed to be formed unless it is able to state that it has a range. Of course, we recognise that that has proved very hard on the Volunteers as a whole, and this £170,000 was provided in the Estimates to assist regiments to acquire ranges. I think I have shown the House that we have been able to assist a very large number of regiments, and if the special case to which the noble Marquess referred is a hard one, I can only express the regret of the Secretary of State, and the hope 816 that out of the sum of money that we have been able to save by other ranges not having cost so much as was anticipated, we shall be able to assist in some manner that particular case.
*EARL SPENCERMy Lords, I only wish to say a word with regard to the case which the noble Marquess has brought up of the Northamptonshire range. The noble Earl, in the statement he has just made, declared that a rifle corps had to find a range for itself, and he rather implied that it would not be sanctioned unless it had secured a range; but I would point out that the range to which the noble Marquess referred was one belonging to a corps which has been established for many years. They had an admirable range in use close to Milton Park, and when the new regulations with regard to the greater length of the range, consequent upon the new rifle, came into force this, with several other ranges in Northamptonshire, was closed, and it became a matter of extreme difficulty to secure another range. Whether, if the War Office found a range by the sea, as the noble Marquess had hinted, that would help the Northamptonshire corps I do not know; but I very much doubt it. I do, however, plead that an old corps, which had an admirable range before the changed circumstances of the Army made it necessary that it should be closed, should receive more consideration than one that has not found a range. I therefore hope that more assistance will be given to this very excellent corps, which, by the way, was in my regiment, and that facilities will be afforded it for shooting, in which it was formerly so distinguished. I know that was so, because I had the honour of taking many men from that corps to shoot in rifle matches. I hope the War Office will favourably consider this claim, and other claims like it, and possibly give larger assistance than they have done hitherto.
*THE EARL OF DARTMOUTHThe noble Earl the Under Secretary has asked me to withdraw my Motion for Papers to be laid immediately. I did not suggest that they should be laid at once. I have waited with exemplary patience for a year and ten months, all 817 but a day, and, therefore, I can wait a little longer. I certainly do not wish to press him to lay the Papers on the Table before they are ready, but I would like to ask the noble Earl this question: Why is it necessary to wait till the whole sum has been allocated before laying the Papers on the Table? There is only a sum of £13,000 left to allocate, and surely there can be no great objection to laying Papers before Parliament, at all events in regard to the money already distributed. It seems to me unnecessary to wait till the whole sum has been spent, and I should be glad if the noble Earl could let us have a return of the money already spent. With regard to one other point, I think the noble Earl said that half the amount that the range was going to cost was the amount allocated to individual corps.
§ THE EARL OF HARDWICKEThe most that was allocated.
*THE EARL OF DARTMOUTHYes, but from my own personal experience, in some instances at any rate, only half has been given of the amount raised by the battalion itself, apart from individual subscriptions, which is a very different thing indeed from giving half the total amount. In many instances the locality is asked to assist, and they do what they can very gladly; and, after having exhausted the locality, to be only given by the War Office assistance to the extent of half the amount raised by the battalion itself is, in my opinion, not nearly a sufficient grant to enable the corps to properly equip a rifle range.
§ THE EARL OF HARDWICKEIn reply to the further question of the noble Earl behind me, the reason I did not specify that we should be able to lay Papers at once, was simply that every Volunteer corps was informed that its accounts must be sent into the War Office and settled by June 30th next. Therefore I thought that early in July I should be able to present a full and complete statement to the House. The £13,000 is the actual amount we have in hand at present, but it is quite possible that within the course of the next few months we may be able to 818 save more. Suppose, for instance, the estimated cost of a range was £2,000 and we had agreed to allocate £800, and that on the completion of the range its cost proved to be only £1,000. In that case we should only grant £400, and thereby save £400 which would be added to the £13,000. If the noble Earl presses for it I can lay a statement on the Table, but I do not think it would be altogether a satisfactory one, as it would be subject to revision in the course, possibly, of the next few weeks. I think that a satisfactory return could be placed on the Table in the course of the month of July. In reply to the noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition I would point out that the range to which the noble Marquess has referred has already received a grant from this Committee of one third of the cost, and no corps has received a larger grant than one half of the cost.
THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLYIt has not received any grant at all. The noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition was quite correct when he said that the corps had a range close to Milton Park, and that it was closed by order of the War Office. It has been looking about for a range ever since. I believe it has had an offer from the War Office of a third of the cost, but it cannot get the necessary sanction to enable it to obtain a range.
§ THE EARL OF HARDWICKEI misunderstood the noble Marquess. I take it that a grant has been promised of one-third of the cost if the corps can find a range. I am sorry I cannot say that the War Office recognises it as a duty devolving upon them to find ranges; that is contrary to the regulations.
*THE EARL OF DARTMOUTHI withdraw my Motion on the understanding that, if Papers are not laid on the Table by August 1, I shall raise the question again.