HL Deb 16 June 1903 vol 123 cc1041-3
THE EARL OF WEMYSS

I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether there are any precedents for Bills being proceeded with in Parliament on any subject under inquiry and consideration at the time by a Committee or Commission; and, if so, will he state what those precedents are. I am referring, of course, to the action taken by the Government with regard to the County Councils Bill and the Borough Funds Bill; and, even if the noble Lord is able to produce precedents for Bills being proceeded with on a subject under inquiry by a Committee, then I should say, on the principle that many a rule is better in the breach than in the observance, that those precedents should not be followed.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH)

The noble Earl is a little difficult to deal with, because if any number of precedents are produced, he will not pay any attention to them. The noble Earl's Question proceeds on the assumption that the Bills to which he has alluded refer to the subject under inquiry by the Joint Committee on Municipal Trading, but that is not so. The reference to the Joint Committee is— To consider and report as to the principles which should govern powers given by Bills and Provisional Orders to municipal and other local authorities for industrial enterprise within or without the area of their jurisdiction. These Bills in no way determine what those principles shall be. The object in the one case is to enable County Councils, subject to certain restrictions, to defray the cost of promoting Bills, and, in the other case, so far as the promotion of Bills is concerned, to improve the machinery under which the consent of the constituent body is obtained. I would point out that the greater portion of what is described as municipal trading is done under the powers of general Acts, and the way to stop that, if it is thought desirable to stop it after the inquiry, is to limit the powers given by those general Acts to the various bodies.

THE EARL OF WEMYSS

rose to reply amid some cries of "Order!" He was contending that these Bills dealt with the subject referred to the Joint Committee when—

EARL SPENCER

, interposing, said the noble Earl was not in order in making a speech after a reply had been given to his Question.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY)

I think the noble Earl is exceeding the licence which we are all delighted to give him; but, as the matter has been called to my attention, I think he is clearly out of order.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

Is it not a fact that the only way to stop a Peer is to move that he be no longer heard?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I do not think that is quite accurate. If the noble Earl persisted with his speech despite the cries of "Order," the course suggested might be pursued; but in the circumstances it would be extremely discourteous.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

It would be extremely discourteous, but I do not see how you can stop any Member of this House except by means of a Motion. I have often heard your Lordship say you are only a Member of this House.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

Certainly.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

You may express an opinion, but if a Member chooses to disregard it, what is to happen then?

THE EARL OF WEMYSS

May I go on?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

No.

THE EARL OF WEMYSS

Then I shall reserve what I have to say till a later stage.