HL Deb 24 July 1903 vol 126 cc206-10
*LORD AVEBURY

My Lords, I rise to ask the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council whether the inquiry on which His Majesty's Government are engaged is confined to the effect of modifications of the tariff of the United Kingdom only; or whether information will be laid upon the Table as to the views of the self-governing colonies; and what modifications, if any, they are prepared to make in their own fiscal policy, The great problem now before the nation is partly fiscal and partly political. There are some who, while regret, ting on fiscal grounds any change in our system, are ready to consider any wishes expressed by the colonies in a friendly spirit, and who may be willing to make some concession of their economical convictions if by doing so they can satisfy themselves that the colonies can be induced, not, indeed, to erect additional barriers against foreign countries, but to make some substantial progress in the direction of free, or, at any rate, freer trade with the mother country. Is the preference to be given by lowering the duties on our manufactures, and if so, at what are they to stand, or are the duties to remain at the present rate on our produce and to he raised as against foreigners? The effect in the two cases will be, of course, very different, and if the latter course were adopted the benefit to our trade would be very slight. Again, what articles are to be affected? I take it for granted that there cannot be one ad valorem rate. Foreign gold, for instance, cannot be taxed. Though it may seem a contradiction in terms, we might be given preferential rates, and yet duties might be so imposed as to fall specially on British goods. For instance, Canada has given us a preference, and we recognise it gratefully; but her fiscal system presses with special severity on British goods, and even after the preference we pay a higher rate than other countries. The rate on British goods is, on an average, 18 per cent.; that on American goods only 12 per cent.; or, if we take dutiable articles only, the rates in both cases, after allowing for the 33 per cent., 25 per cent. As to future changes, the statements in the Blue - book are not definite enough to enable as to estimate their probable effect. For instance, the Cape and Natal fore-shadow a difference of 25 per cent., but suggest that this is to be arrived at, not by lowering duties on our produce, but by raising those on produce from foreign countries; Australia says, "preferential treatment not yet defined as to nature or extent;" New Zealand suggests a general preference of 10 per cent. either by reduction of the present duty or by raising that on foreign produce; Canada promises a further reduction, but does not say what. It is impossible to judge whether, and to what extent, if any, it would be wise of us to alter our present system without much more information on these points. I trust, therefore, that the noble Duke will be able to state that the facts to be laid before the country will include some information as to the desires and intentions of the self-governing colonies.

*THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE)

My Lords, in the absence of the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council, my noble friend will perhaps allow me to reply to his Question. It seems to me that some of the matters to which he referred in his speech were of a kind which it would be obviously impossible for you Lordships' House to discuss at the present moment. His object is to obtain from us an assurance that we shall take measures to make ourselves aware of the opinions of the self-governing colonies with regard to the question of tariff policy. I think it has been stated repeatedly and in speeches which have been delivered from this Bench, that the colonial aspects of the case will certainly be considered by His Majesty's Government. But it has been said also, and I think it was said last night by the noble Duke, that in our view it is necessary, in the first place, that we should, so to speak, clear our own minds, and ascertain, so far as the interest of this country are concerned, whether it is possible to make a change of the kind which has been under discussion; and that when that point has been disposed of the time will have arrived for approaching the self-governing colonies and ascertaining from them to what extent they are prepared, in exchange for anything we may have to offer to them, to give us preferential treatment which may be acceptable to us. We are at present engaged on the first branch of that investigation, and until it has been further advanced I do not see how it is possible for us to approach the second branch. The only other observation which it occurs to me to make is this. The noble Lord dwelt on the necessity of bearing in mind the political as well as the commercial aspects of this problem, and I entirely agree with him in that. To my mind, so far as the self-governing colonies are concerned, the political considerations which arise in connection with this question are fully as important as those considerations which are purely commercial or economic in character. That is all I can tell the noble Lord in reply to his Question. I see that the noble Duke is now in his place, and he may possibly desire to supplement what I have said.

THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH

As the noble Duke is now in his place I should like to call his attention to a pamphlet which has been sent to me by the Liberal Unionist Association, of which I see the noble Duke is chairman. I certainly understood, from what the noble Duke said last night, that not only had he not committed himself in favour of Mr. Chamberlain's proposals, but that no member of the Government, except the Colonial Secretary, was committed to them. The noble Duke is reported to have said last night— I believe that if free trade has not done for us all that some of its authors expected that it would do, it is not very difficult to prove that any alternative proposal would not remedy the evils complained of, and might involve us in greater evils still. From the language used by the noble Duke himself I think it fair to infer that he is at the present moment a free-trader; but in this paper, which contains a list of publications for anti against the proposed changes, the noble Duke is stated to have delivered a speech in favour of the proposed changes. Lower down, however, the noble Duke appears as being against the proposed changes. In other words, the paper would appear to give the impression that the noble Duke had delivered two contradictory opinions on the subject. I desire to ask, therefore, whether this paper has his approval, and whether he is prepared to assume the responsibility Which the paper attributes to him of supporting Mr. Chamberlain's proposals. It is very important that papers should not be circulated which will mislead the public as to the noble Duke's position.

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Duke of DEVONSHIRE)

I think it would he more convenient if Questions of this sort were asked after notice. But I am perfectly able and willing to answer this Question at once. The list of leaflets to which the noble Earl has referred has been published by the Liberal Unionist Asso- ciation, of which, as the noble Earl states, I am chairman, and a certain number of them have been published with my knowledge. The noble Earl has evidently not taken the trouble to look at the leaflets themselves. If he had done so he would have seen that what is published, in what he referred to as the list of those in favour of Mr. Chamberlain's policy, represents the Duke of Devonshire as being in favour of inquiry. The extract is taken from a speech which I delivered in this House, and I can have no objection whatever to having a passage from my speech in favour of inquiry reproduced. It is not in the least, and does not profess to be, a paper in support of Mr. Chamberlain's proposals.

The subject then dropped.