HL Deb 15 May 1902 vol 108 cc345-51
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

My Lords, some weeks ago † I called your Lordship's attention to damage which had been done and might be done to house property through the construction and working of underground railways, and I also directed your Lordships' attention to the fact that, under the law as it now stands, no action lies against a railway company which holds its charter by statute, for any damage it may do in its working, and I suggested to your Lordships that possibly there might be some change made in the existing law. I understood then that the Board of Trade would prepare clauses and submit them to the Lord Chairman of Committees, and that these clauses would be considered by him, and I believe that such clauses have been drawn. I also have seen it stated that clauses altering

† See (4) Debates, civ., 986.

the general law in relation to this subject are at the present time under the consideration of two Committees of your Lordships' House now sitting upon Private Bills.

The point which I wish to submit to the House is this, that this change in the law—if it is an alteration in the general law as I apprehend it is intended to be, and as I think the Chairman of Committees said it would be applying to all Bills for underground railways—if this alteration becomes the general law, if it embodies a general policy, then it will form part of the general law of which it will be an alteration; and in these circumstances I submit to your Lordships that these clauses ought, in the first instance, to be laid on the Table of the House, so that the House may become acquainted with their terms, and also that the public may have notice of the proposals, so that anyone, who may see fit to do so, may offer suggestions upon them. I do not know anything of the clauses myself. I daresay they are very good clauses, but the point is one of principle. I would submit to your Lordships that when it is proposed to alter the general law the procedure ought to be the same as it is with regard to any alteration in your Lordships' Standing Orders, which is always laid on the Table of your Lordship's House for consideration. It appears to me there is some inconvenience in clauses of this sort being presented to Committees on Private Bills. In the first place, it by no means follows that all Committees will come to the same conclusion, and my view is that if there is to be an alteration of the general law, of course the alteration should be one and the same in all cases. Another thing is, that as far as I know, your Lordships only refer these Private Bills to Committees for consideration with regard to the objects for which they are promoted. You do not submit to them any question of alteration of the general law. Under any circumstances, I think if your Lordships were to allow this matter to pass away to a Committee your Lordships might never become acquainted with the change at all, because, as the House knows, Private Bills are not printed and circulated, and are not laid on the Table of the House. So it would not be in the knowledge of your Lordships what change had been made. It is a question of the original jurisdiction of this House and I apprehend this House will be very slow to part with any of its original jurisdiction. For these reasons I submit these clauses should be laid on the Table of the House that they may be considered before they are inserted in any Railway Bill.

Moved to resolve, That the special clauses to be proposed with reference to the damage done by underground railways be submitted for consideration by the House, before being inserted in any Railway Bill.—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of MORLEY)

My noble friend moved, as he has said, some weeks ago on this subject, and I then objected to his Motion on the ground that it went somewhat further than I thought the circumstances justified. But I fully admitted from the first that something more than the present state of the law was required for the protection of property under the very novel circumstances of these tube railways. There is no doubt that the conditions under which these "tube railways," as they are called, are made are entirely novel. We have had no experience of their results, and at present it is very difficult to tell what damage may he done to adjoining property by constant working of the trains. Therefore I am entirely in agreement with my noble friend that something is required to be done, and I also quite sympathise with him in the wish that the House at large, and not merely a Committee, should be thoroughly informed of what clauses are introduced into these Bills, and further the object which he and I, and I think the House generally have in view. But, my Lords, there is a good deal of difficulty in carrying out the suggestion my noble friend has made, of in the first instance laying these clauses before the House. My noble friend laid some stress on "alteration of the general law," and no doubt it is in a sense, an alteration of the general law whenever a Private Bill is passed. But then my noble friend may say these Bills are to meet special cases, but the clauses now referred to are of a more general character. That, no doubt, is perfectly true, but the circumstances may not be the same in all these Bills, and though it is quite irregular, I know, to refer to the proceedings of Committees now sitting, I think it is pretty well known that there are two Committees now discussing tube railways upstairs—one of them I think has almost concluded its labours—and these Committees have considered with very great care clauses which have been submitted to them, and which they' have themselves suggested, to see what can be done to give some further protection than the ordinary law affords to owners of property in the neighbourhood of these railways. These Committees have had the great advantage of having before then the promoters' cases, the cases for opponents, and the cases of owners of property, and of having these cases thoroughly discussed by counsel engaged for the several interests. And now I venture to submit to the House that it would be far better to leave the elaboration of these clauses for the present to these Committees. Let them insert clauses in the Bills if they think proper to do so, either clauses of absolute uniform character, or clauses to meet the varying circumstances of the different Bills, and when the Bill comes before your Lordships on the Third Heading it will be perfectly open to the House to consider these clauses and make any alteration in them the House may think fit. My noble friend says Private Bills do not come before the House in the way Public Bills do, and that they are not printed for circulation. I can assure him that I shall be very happy to inform him, or give general information to the House when these Bills are coming on for Third Reading, and if my noble friend will then call attention to the clauses that may be introduced into the Bills, and will take the opinion of the House on them, it will. I think, provide a guide to future Committees and to myself in dealing with such Bills. I think that would be a more convenient course to adopt—and I shall be glad to do everything in my power to assist the noble Lord in that way—than to pursue the course he suggests in his Resolution.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

Of course the suggestion of the noble Lord will be most convenient to the House, and I shall not oppose it or take the sense of the House on my Motion. But, at the same time, I wish to point out that it is only by the noble Lord calling oar attention specially on the Third Heading to these Bills that we can take action. If he will kindly undertake that they shall be printed and laid on the Table of the House, the House will have an opportunity of judging of the clauses. I do not wish to persevere with my Motion, but unless some unusual course of this kind it taken your Lordships will not be in a position, I fear, to see these clauses at all. As the matter is a very important one and the general law is, as we know, frequently altered, and in this case the alteration will be novel and may be considerable, certainly, I think the House ought to have the means of knowing what is being done.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The EARL of HALSBURY)

The noble Lord seems to he under some misapprehension as to the effect of a clause in a Railway Act on the general law. A railway company has its own code recognised in the Statute authorising the construction of a railway, and if any one line is authorised by an Act having a particular section in it, that will not affect any railway beyond the particular railway in question. It will not be an alteration of the general law, though it is true enough it is an alteration of the general law which is enacted in these Railway Bills. It is a mistake to treat this business as an alteration of the general law. The general law is that where a railway is authorised by Parliament to be made from one point to another, under the Railway Clauses Act the user of the railway does not give rise to a claim for compensation for damage done during the working of the railway. The noble Lord seemed to think that the authorisation of either of these railways with some special provision made would have operation beyond this particular railway, but that is wrong.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I quite concur with everything that has been said by the noble Earl on the Woolsack; perhaps I did not use quite the correct expression when I alluded to the general law. But these clauses are intended, as I said on a previous occasion, to be clauses of general application, and in future Underground Railway Bills it will be the exception, not the rule, if they are not inserted. It is because it is intended that they shall be clauses for general application that it seemed to me a matter that should come before the attention of your Lordships' House.

THE EARL OF MORLEY

I will undertake that the House shall have printed copies of the clause or clauses in the Bills, so that the proposals shall be in your Lordships' hands.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

With that assurance I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion, by leave of the House, withdrawn.

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  1. THE CORONATION—ACCOMMODATION FOR PEERS, ETC. 259 words