REMOUNTS—PURCHASES IN WESTERN NORTH AMERICA. (Hansard, 14 March 1902)

§ LORD RIBBLESDALE
My Lords, I rise to move for a Return of the number of horses purchased for His Majesty's Government in the Western States of North America up to the 31st of January, 1902, and to ask what has been the average price paid for such horses. I must apologise to the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for War for asking in a rather different form almost the same Question which he was either unwilling or unable to answer the other night. † In that Question I asked the noble and gallant Lord whether he knew the number of horses delivered at Kansas City, and the answer was that he had no information on that point. I understood the noble Lord, however, to say that all the horses which had been bought in the Western States of North America had been shipped at New Orleans, and therefore in putting my Question tonight I have acted on that hint. As the greater includes the less, and as the Western States, of North America include New Orleans. I have asked him for the number of horses purchased in the Western States of North America, and the average price paid for such horses. What interests me most is the average price paid. The answer the noble Lord gave me the other night was quite beside the point. With all that chivalrous tenderness towards contractors and contracts which has distinguished His Majesty's Government when Questions of this sort have been asked, the noble Lord replied that it was a contract price, and therefore a matter of secrecy—a sort of sensitive plant which would wither at once if exposed to the fierce light of your Lord † See page 567. 9 ships' House. I submit that in givin me that answer the noble Lord was replying to a question which I had never asked. I did not mention the word "contractor" or "contracts." I asked for the average price. All that the noble Lord had to do was to add the number of dollars paid up to date for horses purchased in the States, and divide that by the number of horses shipped from New Orleans. He would then arrive at the average price. That would give no sort of revelation as to contract price, and I do not think it would involve any of those economic risks which the noble Lord has from time to time indicated as inevitably incident to the disclosure of the contract price. I have had information which makes me very uncomfortable about what is going on, but from the answer of the noble Lord to my Question the other day I imagine he does not know what is taking place. That seems to me hardly conceivable. I cannot suppose that His Majesty's Government are getting no returns as to the horses which they are buying out there at a very much higher price than they ought to pay. If the noble Lord cannot give me the particulars, the disclosure of the happy-go-lucky way of trading will not restore the already shaken confidence of practical people in the business capacity of the War Office.

* THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord RAGLAN)
My Lords, the noble Lord has slightly altered the form of his Question. I said in my answer the other day that we would send for the information for which he asked, but it has not arrived at the War Office yet. As soon as we have it I shall be happy to lay it on the Table. As to the answer which I gave to the noble Lord, I do not recollect confining myself to the question of contract. What I said was that most of the horses were being bought at these particular places, not by contract, but by private 10 purchase, All the horses that are being bought in the Western States of North America are being purchased by five officers of the Remount Department who are over there, and the greater part of the horses are bought from small dealers. Horses are bought individually as well as in large numbers. We have at the War Office, of course, information as to the total number of horses bought in the United States, and the total price paid for them, but we have no information as to the price paid for particular horses in particular places in the States. I can not agree with the noble Lord that it would be well to publish the prices.

§ * LORD TWEEDMOUTH
My Lords, I do not rise to enter at length into the discussion, but to say that the statement of the noble Lord that he cannot give the price paid for particular horses in a particular place is extraordinary. He ought to have been able to give the average price of each lot of horses wherever they came from. If the War Office have not got these prices it shows bad book-keeping. Of course, I quite understand it is possible that it might not be desirable to give these prices. Say nothing as to that; but it does seem extraordinary that the Under Secretary for War should state that it is impossible for him to give the information.

§ * THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE)
My Lords, I did not I understand my noble friend the Under Secretary to base his case entirely on the difficulty of obtaining the prices of particular bunches of horses bought in particular localities. What my noble friend most objects to, is to making any statement with regard to the average price at which these horses have been bought, and I must say it seems to me that the case against making such a statement is overwhelming. The charge which has been made against the agents of the Government is that they have made bad bargains for the country, and I dare say that in the early days of the campaign hurried bargains were made and high prices paid, as is always the case when one buys in a hurry. But our object surely ought to be to make better bargains in the 11 future. Now, what would be the effect of the proposal of the noble Lord to advertise to the whole world the price at which horses were bought up to the beginning of this year in these particular States? These prices would become generally known, and the result would be that our buyers, wherever they went, would not be able to get a single horse below the price which, as a matter of notoriety, was formerly paid by the Government. I understand that my noble friend is quite ready to give the information which the noble Lord asks for in the first part of his Motion, but his refusal to give the other information is perfectly reasonable.

§ LORD RIBBLESDALE
I will not press my Motion, although I believe that the publication of these prices would have the contrary effect to that suggested by the noble Marquess. The sellers out there would know that the prices published were considered in this country as very excessive, and that they could not again sell horses at that figure. The prices would, therefore, comedown instead of going up. That is my feeling on the matter, and I have had a great deal of experience in the purchase of horses.