HL Deb 15 December 1902 vol 116 cc1105-9
*EARL SPENCER

My Lords, I have given private notice to the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs of a Question on the subject of the situation in Venezuela. I think that Parliament has some reason to complain of the very small amount of information which has been vouchsafed on this question up to the present. We compare very unfavourably with Germany in this matter, for 1 understand that a great many Papers have been laid before the German Parliament with full information as to the causes of the present action. There is another point which I am doubtful whether I ought to mention; but I doubt whether the noble Marquess was right to be playfully sarcastic and jocular in a recent speech with reference to this small country—Venezuela. We are about to enter into negotiations with Venezuela, or into acts of war, and a public dinner at such a moment is not the right occasion to choose for jocular remarks on the subject. When the noble Marquess speaks in public, he speaks, not in his private capacity, but as Foreign Minister. I wish to know whether the noble Marquess has any information to give with regard to the causes which led to the issue of the ultimatum to Venezuela; whether any answer has been received from the Venezuelan Government; and whether the Government has any information as to the release of the prisoners made by the Venezuelan Government, and as to the sinking of ships taken by the fleets of England and Germany. Since I gave notice of this Question, various other incidents have been reported in the public Press, such as the bombardment of a certain port. Perhaps the noble Marquess can give some information on those points at the same time.

*THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE)

My Lords, I am sorry that so good and experienced a critic as the noble Earl should think it necessary to take exception to the tone of the very few observations which I made the other evening at a public dinner on the subject of Venezuela. The noble Earl characterised my remarks as unduly jocular.

*EARL SPENCER

And sarcastic.

*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

The only observation which I can recall, which at all merits that description, was an observation in which I permitted myself to say that I thought the Venezuelan Government had indulged in a superfluous number of revolutions in recent years. I might perhaps have said that in more tragical accents. Perhaps if I had been addressing your Lordships I should have done so. But on such an occasion, I confess, it did not seem to be improper to deal in a lighter view with what I admit is a very serious subject. The noble Earl complains of us for not having at an earlier stage supplied information and Papers on this question. Anticipating the interest which your Lordships were likely to take in it, we prepared a collection of the more important Papers, and I laid them on the Table on Friday last, and they are now before your Lordships.

*EARL SPENCER

We have not got them.

*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

Here they are.

*EARL SPENCER

We want them circulated.

*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

They will be delivered to day. I do not think I can do better than refer the noble Earl to those Papers for the answer to the first Question which he has addressed to me. He will find that the first of these Papers is a Memorandum in which a number of cases are recapitulated in which we have the gravest reasons for complaining of the manner in which British subjects and their property have been dealt with by the Venezuelan Government. As to the ultimatum, the noble Earl will find in the series of Papers no less than three solemn warnings addressed by His Majesty's Government to the Government of Venezuela, the last of them being the ultimatum which was presented in the early days of the present month. There were two earlier communications of a similar kind—one in the month of June and another in the month of November. Since these Papers were published we have received a telegram from our Minister in Venezuela containing a summary of a document which had been handed to him, and which purports to be a reply to the ultimatum of December 2. Mr. Haggard, in summarising this Paper, informs us that it makes no allusion to the definitive character of the ultimatum. It contains complaints that His Majesty's Government have offered no reparation for the injury inflicted by the "Ban Righ" upon the Venezuelan Government, and the conduct of the authorities at Trinidad; and it concludes by stating that, the Venezuelan Treasury being exhausted, it is impossible for the Government to meet its debts for the moment, but that as soon as peace is concluded it will not be necessary to remind the Venezuelan Government of its obligations. That purports to be the reply to the ultimatum; and since that we have received through the United States Government a proposal from the Venezuelan Government to refer a part of the complaints which we have made against them to arbitration. The proposal is that the present difficulty in respect of the manner of settling claims for injuries to British and German subjects during the insurrection should be submitted to arbitration. That proposal has just been received, and is under the consideration of His Majesty's Government.

The noble Earl asks me for information as to the release of the British subjects who were arrested by the Venezuelan Government. We have already given such information as was in our possession, We received two telegrams from our Ambassador at Washington, one of them informing us that the United States Government had heard from the United States Minister at Caracas, in a message dated December 10, that all British and German subjects in Venezuela had been arrested. The United States Minister goes on to say, This afternoon I shall see the President and urge him to release them all to-day. Then follows a telegram dated December 11, communicated by the Secretary of State. in which the United States Minister says— The President informs me that he has released all British and Germans who were arrested. I think your Lordships will agree that we are much indebted for the good offices of the United States Minister in Caracas in these difficult circumstances.

As to the sinking of the Venezuelan gunboats, the facts, as reported to us, are as follows: The Venezuelan gunboats were seized partly by the British and partly by the German ships of war. We are told that of the gunboats seized by the German ships of war it was found necessary to sink two. We have not received any official explanation of the circumstances, and it is obviously impossible for me to undertake, without such information, to explain under what stress of necessity these acts had to be resorted to. With regard to a statement in the Press that certain buildings have been bombarded by British ships, we have seen the statement, but we have received no official confirmation of it. For the rest, I cannot do better than refer the noble Earl to the Papers which are now on the Table of your Lordship's House.

*EARL SPENCER

With regard to the two gunboats said to have been sunk, I see some account of his Majesty's ship "Retribution" conducting two of these Venezuelan vessels away. Does the sinking refer to these ships, or to the vessels seized by the Germans?

*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

The remark refers entirely to the vessels seized by the German ships of war.