HL Deb 08 August 1902 vol 112 cc1088-92
*LORD KILLANIN

My Lords, I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, inasmuch as His Majesty's Government are not, as stated by him, in communication with the Government of the Dominion of Canada on the question of subsidising a fast Atlantic service to be worked by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, he can say if His Majesty's Government are taking any steps, and, if so, what, for the establishment of an Atlantic service under the British flag, after the absorption of the British-owned lines by an American combination. This is really a supplementary Question, or, to adopt the phraseology of another place, a Question arising out of an answer which the noble Earl gave me in reply to an interrogation of mine on Tuesday last† On that occasion the noble Earl said he could not undertake to speak for the Government of the Dominion or for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and he added that he had no official information as to their intention of subsidising a fast service across the Atlantic. There was a good deal of dissatisfaction felt with that reply, not alone because it was unsympathetic to the special point †See page 651. I had put before him—namely, the advisability of considering the advantages of establishing a terminal port on the West coast of Ireland—but also because he did not give a fuller expression as to what is the attitude of the Government towards the various reports and counter reports of offers and combines affecting the trade and traffic of the Atlantic Ocean. I, therefore, today, more directly ask the noble Earl if His. Majesty's Government are taking any steps in order themselves to start a fast service between this country and Canada, and especially whether they intend to do so having regard to the American combination, or what I might perhaps call the Morganatic alliance, that is reported to have taken place between a certain magnate of the United States and his partners in this country. I have already addressed the House at some length on this subject, and really the whole matter has passed beyond the stage when in any interrogatory form it has any novelty or interest for any one. Some information as to the attitude and intentions of the Government, if they can be at all indicated, is what the country is anxiously looking for. The country is, I think, naturally and properly anxious, and even agitated, about this question. It recognises its great seriousness and magnitude. Indeed, such an Atlantic combine as we have heard of is no storm in a tea cup. The country, rightly or wrongly, feels that its commercial position in the Atlantic is, to say the least of it, seriously threatened, and I am certain that the House and the public would be glad to hear that the Government are not alone alive to the importance of the interests involved in this matter, but that they have undertaken, or are ready to undertake, adequate measures in order to maintain the position and the prestige of this country in the Atlantic.

THE EARL OF MEATH

My Lords, I am glad that my noble friend has brought forward this question again. I left the House on the last occasion when this question was discussed with astonishment and pain owing to the nature of the answer given by the noble Earl. I am sure that the noble Earl did not wish to show any disrespect to Ireland or to Irishmen, but from the report of his speech one would imagine that he had enjoyed no political experience whatever. But he served Her late Majesty as Governor of New Zealand with great credit to himself, and left that colony beloved by all, for during the time he was there he devoted his whole energies to promoting the best interests of the colony. The noble Earl, however, does not seem to realise the great importance to Ireland of this question of a fast line between Canada and Ireland. Many Irishmen are indignant at the way in which the answer given by the noble Earl to Lord Killanin the other night was framed. I would have imagined that the subject of an Atlantic service to be worked by the Canadian Pacific Company was a matter which the Govern would have considered, but the noble Earl's reply was simply that he had no official information. Irish Unionists are continually being told that the British Government does not care two straws for Ireland. How are we to combat that statement if we are addressed as we were addressed by the noble Earl the other night? I am myself a convinced Unionist, and I ask why Irishmen are not to have the sympathy of His Majesty's Government. The selection of a terminal port in Ireland for such an undertaking would bring millions of money into Ireland, would vivify the whole of her commercial organisation, and would give Irishmen hope and courage. All we are told is that the Government will form a ring and see fair play. I only hope the noble Earl's answer to-day will be a little more sympathetic.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

My Lords, I am extremely grieved to find that the noble Earl thought the remarks I made a few days ago so unsympathetic; but he will pardon me if I draw attention to the fact that there may be competing claims, not only between English and Irish ports, but also between various ports in Ireland itself. What I wished to convey was that, if there was to be a selection of any port the Government would have to hear the arguments brought forward from each competing port—from Bantry Bay, Galway, Liverpool, Southampton—before they come to a decision. That, I think, is the proper course of procedure. It is not the duty of the Government to pronounce an opinion in favour of any particular port without having heard; the whole of the arguments on behalf of the various localities concerned. The Question put to me by Lord Killanin a few nights ago did not refer to the American acquisition of British lines, but referred exclusively to a fast service to Canada. That is a very old subject, and has nothing to do with the Morgan combination. It is a matter which primarily affects the interests of the Dominion Government, who have it under consideration. The Dominion Government have not told His Majesty's Government what their proposals are, or asked them for their assistance. If that assistance is asked for, the question of giving it will be most favourably considered. Until and unless the Dominion Government approach His Majesty's Government, it is not for the latter to make any proposition in the matter. The noble Lord next asked whether His Majesty's Government are taking any steps, and, if so, what, for the establishment of an Atlantic service under the British flag, after the absorption of the present British-owned lines by an American combination. That is a very grave and important subject, audit is receiving the attention of His Majesty's Government. If any such service under the British flag as is suggested by the Question of Lord Killanin is to be established, it will be necessary to come to Parliament for the money required; and when that time comes, if it does come, the Government will place before Parliament all the information connected with it. But at the present stage of the proceedings it would be very unwise and impolitic to make any communication which might hamper the negotiations going on. I have given the noble Lord as much information as it is in my power to give; and, with regard to my answer the other night, I beg to disclaim any intention of being unsympathetic or of treating Ireland with disrespect.

THE EARL OF MAYO

I think the statement of the noble Earl that the Government of the Dominion of Canada have not approached the Imperial Government in any way on this subject settles the question, and makes it quite clear that there is to be no line, and that our hopes of having the claims of Irish ports to consideration recognised in the event of the establishment of a fast service to Canada are dashed to the ground. I confess that the information that the Government of the Dominion have not approached His Majesty's Government on the subject of this service has come as a shock to me.