HL Deb 17 May 1901 vol 94 cc415-21

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER

My Lords, in moving that the House resolve itself into Committee on this Bill, I should like to point out that, although the sheet of Amendments is a small one, and the apparent differences between the previous Bill and the Bill as it is to be amended are less than they were in the Habitual Drunkards Bill which has just passed through Committee, the real differences which the Government desires to bring about are very much greater than in the former case. In the case of the Habitual Drunkards Bill it was the wording rather than the substance that was altered; but it is proposed to alter this Bill in substance. The changes are very material indeed, and I do not quite understand in what position this Bill stands as compared with the Bill which has just passed through Committee. Perhaps the noble Lord who represents the Government will explain, so that I may know exactly how I stand.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee on the said Bill.—(The Lord Bishop of Winchester.)

LORD BELPER

The Amendments I have to move on behalf of the Government are in line with the criticisms which I made when the Bill was read a second time, and it was subject to these Amendments that the Government accepted the Second Reading of the Bill. We do not propose to move additional clauses or deal in any other way with the Bill.

On Question, agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

Clause 1:—

THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER

The words "only of being interested," which I propose to substitute for "of his holding shares," correspond with the wording of Section 60 of the Licensing Act, 1872, and it is thought that they cover the ground better than the words as they now stand. The clause as amended will read as follows— A justice shall not be disqualified to act for any purpose under the Licensing Acts by reason, only of being interested in a railway company owning or occupying licensed refreshment, rooms or hotels.

Amendment moved— In Clause 1, page 1, line 6, to leave out 'of his holding shares,' and to insert 'only of being interested.'"—(The Lord Bishop of Winchester).

LORD BELPER

The Government have no objection to this Amendment which they consider a proper one.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2:—

LORD BELPER

I have to move the deletion of Sub-sections (1) and (2), which provide— (1) That no person who would be disqualified by Section 60 of the Licensing Act, 1872, to act under the Licensing Acts in a district shall be appointed a member of watch committee, or a clerk of the peace, petty sessions, borough justices, or watch committee in that district; (2) that no person shall be appointed to act in any such office as the aforesaid who is in partnership with any person holding a professional appointment under a brewery or distillery company or an association for the protection of the interests of persons engaged in the liquor trade. In the place of these sub-sections I move to insert a provision making Section 60 of the Licensing Act, 1872, as amended by this Act, apply to a clerk to justices in like manner as it applies to a justice. This Amendment, which the Government think is necessary, practically carries out the unanimous recommendation of the Royal Commission, for it provides that the same disqualification shall apply to clerks to justices as applies at present to the justices themselves. The clause as it stands goes very much further. As drawn, the measure would absolutely prevent a clerk of the peace, petty sessions, borough justices, or watch committee from being appointed who was disqualified to act as a justice under the Licensing Act of 1872. As to clerks of the peace, the only occasions on which their action comes in question are when they fulfil the duties of clerks of quarter sessions, and I do not think that in any matter of licensing appeal those courts are likely to act at the instigation of the clerk. They are in a much more independent position than one or two justices acting with their awn clerk. This is a Bill to alter the qualifications of licensing authorities and the time of holding licensing sessions, and its short title is the Licensing Sessions Act. Watch committees are in no sense licensing authorities, and the Government do not think the Bill ought to deal with them.

Amendment moved— In Clause 2, page 1, line 6, to leave out sub-clauses (1) and (2) and to insert—(1) Section 60 of the Licensing Act, 1872, which relates to disqualifications of justices shall, as amended by this Act, apply to a clerk to-justices in like manner as it applies to a justice."—(Lord Belper.)

THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER

I gladly accept the alteration proposed with regard to justices' clerks. The more one looks into the subject the more complicated it seems. I think the clause as now proposed—though I have some difficulty in judging how it will operate in practice—is better than the one I inserted in the Bill. But I feel great difficulty about the watch committees. This point is one on which great emphasis was laid by the witnesses, before the Royal Commission and by both parties in the Report of the Commission itself. I believe the noble Lord, with his knowledge of the affairs of the Home Office, will bear me out in saying, that recent months have not shown the alleged evil to be a fanciful one. It would in these circumstances be a very great loss to decline to deal with the matter. There has been abundant evidence of the grossness of the abuse in some places where the men who are disqualified from sitting as licensing justices are called upon to deal with the very same problem as members of the watch committee. Nothing would be more disappointing to us than the necessity, if it be a necessity, of striking; out the provision which deals with the watch committees. I admit that watch committees would not naturally fall within the title of the Bill, but I understand that when we postpone the title on going into Committee, we do so in order that, if any provision is carried which is contrary to the title as originally drafted, it may be altered. I should be very sorry if on so technical a point a great reform is to be postponed.

EARL SPENCER

I hope the Government will carefully consider what has, been said by the right rev. Prelate, because there is no more important part of the Report of the Royal Commission than that which deals with this subject Anybody who reads the Report of the Royal Commission will see that there are very grave cases indeed in which the watch committees have prevented the police from acting vigorously and properly. As to the clerks of the peace, it is suggested that they seldom, when licensing appeals are heard, advise the court. I cannot speak from actual experience, but what I have heard tends to show that in other cases which come before the courts the clerk of the peace is almost always consulted and gives advice. I trust the provision relating to clerks of the peace will be retained.

LORD BELPER

I am assured that watch committees would be entirely outside the scope of the Bill, but after what has been said I will take care to again consult the Home Secretary. I can, however, give no pledge on the matter.

EARL SPENCER

If the watch committee is included, the County Standing Joint Committee ought to be included, for it stands in the same position in the county as the watch committee does in the borough.

LORD BELPER

I have never heard the same objections raised to the Standing Joint Committee of the county as are raised in the case of the watch committee, but undoubtedly they stand on the same footing. They are both purely police committees, and do not deal with licensing questions. I think that what the noble Earl has said shows how difficult it would be to deal with watch committees in this Bill.

THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER

Do I understand that the question of the watch committee will be reconsidered?

LORD BELPER

I cannot in the least say that it will be reconsidered, but I have promised to bring what has been said before the Home Secretary.

LORD HENEAGE

This question of the watch committee is a very difficult one. I support the Government Amendment, because, if disqualification is to be extended to the watch committee, it must be extended not only to the Joint Committee of the county, but to the chief constable of the county also. It seems rather a strong thing that a man who has been elected by the ratepayers as a fit and proper person to be returned to the town council should be debarred from doing his duty simply on account of his trade. I am myself connected with a borough in which the watch committee are entirely under the thumb of the extremest section of the temperance party, and the police complain quite as much of interference with their duty from those members as they do in other boroughs of interference from those connected with the trade. I cannot see why a man should be excluded from serving on the watch committee because he is interested in the sale of beer and spirits, any more than a man interested in the sale of soda-water and ginger-beer.

On question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD BELPER

Sub-section 3 of Clause 2 provides that no solicitor, being a clerk of licensing justices, or being in partnership with such clerk, shall, as solicitor for any person, conduct or act in any application for or in respect of a licence or any other proceedings whatsoever under the Licensing Acts, except so far as relates to the preparation of notices or forms. The Amendment standing in my name will render solicitors contravening this sub-section liable on summary conviction to a fine of £100.

Amendment moved— In Clause 2, page 1, line 27, after 'forms' to insert 'and if any solicitor contravenes this provision, he shall be liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds.'"—(Lord Belper

On question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— In Clause 2, page 2, line 1, to leave out Sub-clause 4."—(Lord Belper.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 3 to 5 agreed to.

Clause 6:—

THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER

I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name, altering the title of the Bill to "The Licensing Bill."

Amendment moved— In Clause 6, page 2, line 33, to leave out 'Sessions.'"—(The Lord Bishop of Winchester.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Bill recommitted to the Standing Committee; and to be reprinted as amended. [No. 80.]

    c421
  1. PRISONS (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.] 14 words
    2. c421
  2. MARRIAGES LEGALISATION BILL [H.L.] 14 words
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  3. ALKALI, ETC., WORKS REGULATION BILL [H.L.] 14 words