SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS TO CHILDREN BILL. (Hansard, 16 August 1901)

*THE LORD BISHOP OF ROCHESTER
My Lords, I imagine that I shall have the feeling of your Lordships with me when I say that a Bill such as this ought not to be submitted without a word or two of introduction. This is another case like that of yesterday of a Bill of sufficient importance to call for more discussion and more possibility of amendment than is possible at present, but in this case we have to be grateful to His Majesty's Government for the facilities they have given for passing a measure which was not theirs originally. I need hardly remind your Lordships that this is a Bill which comes to us backed up with very great weight and authority. It was recommended in both Reports of the Royal Commission, and its Second Reading has been passed by an unequalled majority in the other House. The object of the Bill is a simple one—to prevent children from being employed in the service of carrying liquor from public-houses. I think it is important to observe that this is not a novel experiment. On the contrary, it is simply bringing up the practice in this country to the standard of other countries in Europe, of our own colonies, and of the United States. That we need a considerable change in this matter is shown, I think, both by observation and statistics. I may quote, for example, a case in my own diocese. Two public-houses in South London were under observation for two hours on a particular Sunday, and the fact was revealed that during that time 547 children entered those houses. A considerable change is therefore wanted, and it is a change which only the law can make, and which the law can make if it is sufficiently supported by public opinion. That this law, if passed, will be supported by public opinion is, I think, proved in several ways. It is proved by the immense support which was given in another place. The Majority Report of the Royal Commission contained these words— We are inclined, from the evidence placed before us, to believe that the weight of public opinion now supports the proposition. 1134 And the support given to the Bill has been proved in certain places by ascertaining working class opinion. I understand that in the city of Liverpool a partial experiment of this kind has been successful, and has been accepted even by the trade. I hope, my Lords, the Bill will not meet with any opposition in your Lordships' House. I do not suppose that we shall be told that we are in this instance going too far in the direction of paternal and grandmotherly legislation. We might answer to any such criticism that all we are doing is to restrain the citizen who is in the interest of even a more valuable and more appealing case—namely, of the citizen who is to be. I should like to say what we are not doing by this proposal—we are not making any wholesale charge against public-houses as places of universal contamination; we are only saying, what I think nine out of ten persons, I may even say ninety-nine out of one hundred persons, would agree with reference to their own children, that the public-house is not the place for a child. Neither are we making the case of the children the pretext for delivering a side attack on the working-man's beer. We are not trying to reduce the consumption of beer by asking that children should not be allowed to carry it, but I will not say the same about the consumption of gin and other spirits by women. If this Bill should have the effect of making it a little more difficult for women to drink gin, I should not regret that it had passed. I am exceedingly sorry that it has been found necessary to introduce three Amendments in the Bill. The first Amendment was the insertion of the word "knowingly." The clause now reads— Every holder of a licence who knowingly sells or delivers, or allows any person to sell or deliver any description of intoxicating liquor to any person under the age of fourteen years," etc. The insertion of the word "knowingly" may be made the opportunity for evasion The second Amendment was the throwing of a penalty on the sender of the child as well as the publican who served the liquor, and the third Amendment was the substitution of the age of fourteen for sixteen. I cannot but regret that Amendment. In the Grand Committee another much more serious and even 1135 calamitous Amendment was introduced, referring to the supply of liquor in corked and sealed vessels. This makes it still possible for a child to become familiar with the public-house, and to assist one of the worst forms of drinking—namely, the drinking by women at home. It will probably cut a hole right into the heart of the Bill. But what remains is a sound and wholesome step in the right direction, and, believing as I do that one step in these matters if wisely taken leads to the next, that any raising of the standard helps the standard to rise, I have no hesitation in commending this Bill to the favour of the House.

THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY
I am very glad that this Bill has reached your Lordships' House, and I hope that it will be passed into law with all convenient speed. I believe that it will do more for the good of the children than anything else your Lordships could do for them. I regret that certain Amendments have taken away some part of its efficiency, but even as it stands the Bill is an exceedingly useful one, and I believe that it will have a very beneficial effect.

§ EARL SPENCER
My Lords, I rejoice with the right rev. Prelate and the most rev. Primate that the Bill is to be passed, but I venture to express my deep regret that, with a prospect before us this session of seeing several measures of considerable importance in the cause of temperance reform dealt with this exceedingly attenuated measure should be the whole result of the work, not only of the Royal Commission, but of Parliament this session. Your Lordships will recollect that the right rev. Prelate the Bishop of Winchester introduced two measures on this subject. One was adopted by the noble Marquess at the head of the Government, and we certainly heard from him that the Bill would be introduced in another place, but I understand it has not been heard of there. Therefore, all the hopes we had of that excellent measure becoming law have fallen to the ground. I believe the Bill now before the House will, even in its attenuated form, have a very 1136 excellent effect. I regret the alteration in the age and the insertion of the paragraph as to corked and sealed vessels, but I do not attach so much importance to the Amendment introducing the word "knowingly." There is no doubt that children may be brought, under the exception with regard to corked and sealed vessels, within the evil influence which we all wish to protect them from. I gladly support the Second Reading of the Bill, and I deeply regret that with their large majority the Government have not taken further steps towards the carrying of measures for temperance reform in this country.