§ *LORD REAYMy Lords, I rise to ask the Under Secretary of State for India whether he can give any information as to the number of people engaged on relief works, receiving support in other ways; as to the estimated expenditure and the expenditure hitherto incurred; as to the expediency of increased outlay on irrigation works; and as to the terms on which advances will be made to agriculturists for restocking their holdings, taking into account the mortality among cattle. My questions are prompted by feelings of sympathy which are widespread in this country for those who are stricken by the great calamity which, after such a short interval, has again fallen upon India, and also by the admiration all must feel for the way in which the Administration are meeting this renewed strain on their energies. There are some points upon which I daresay my noble friend will be able to give us information. In the first place, I should be glad if he would state what amount of relief is supplied by public works under the supervision of officers of the Public Works Department, and what amount of relief is given in so-called village works under the supervision of Civil officers, and whether a sufficient number of works had been planned before the famine broke out to fully meet the demand which on this occasion must have been very considerable indeed. The last Famine Commission, presided over by Sir James Lyall, very properly laid great stress on the preparation of plans of works beforehand, so that in case of an outbreak of famine all should be ready, and also on the utilisation of the staff of the Public Works Department in superintending these relief operations. I wish to ask next whether the classification prescribed by Sir James Lyall's Commission—namely, two broad classes of diggers of earth and carriers—has been adopted and worked satisfactorily, and whether the task allotted to the former class, which is composed of able-bodied men, and the task imposed upon the latter, which is composed of women, of children above twelve years of age, and of men who are not able-bodied, answered its purpose. A 15 very important suggestion made by Sir James Lyall's Commission was that the wage should be unified throughout India. To that recommendation objections are urged on account of the different local conditions prevailing in various parts of India. I believe, for instance, that in Madras they are in favour of a higher wage than that considered adequate in the North-West Provinces, and perhaps the noble Lord could tell us whether the objections have proved insuperable. During the last famine in the Central Provinces great difficulties were experienced in applying the labour test to the hill tribes, and information may, perhaps, be given whether small works were opened in the hill tracts, as suggested by the Commission. The Central Provinces are obviously the part of India more afflicted than any other on account of the severe stress of repeated bad seasons, and I think that any exceptional assistance given to the Central Provinces would be entirely justified. As regards gratuitous relief, perhaps the noble Lord will be able to give us some indication of its extent. I am fully prepared to hear that the number of those on gratuitous relief has increased. It is the natural result of a more accurate system of inspection and greater local knowledge, and also of utilising village officials who, of course, must be well acquainted with those who are in need of gratuitous relief, which, in many instances, may act as a rate-in-aid and prevent the point of absolute destitution from being reached. That undoubtedly is an argument in favour of giving gratuitous relief on rather generous lines. With regard to irrigation, Sir James Lyall's Commission urged the construction of remunerative canals in the Punjab, in Scinde, and in Upper Burma, and minor works elsewhere. I should be inclined to press for a further expenditure on wells and tanks, and also on canals in those parts of India where the tillage of the soil is not in ordinary seasons entirely dependent on irrigation, which could not yield a profit, but which would materially prevent failure of crops in a bad season. As regards advances to agriculturists, I suppose the Government will have to allow for a larger expenditure, on account of the fact that the funds which, on previous occasions, were so largely supplied by the charitable public in this country must, from the nature of the case, 16 be less this year than formerly, although I am very glad to see that the figure which the Mansion House Fund has already reached will convince our Indian fellow subjects that, even under the present circumstances, we are not neglectful of their needs. Those advances will, I suppose, be given in many instances for the purchase of cattle, and I trust that where that is the case great care will be taken that the money shall be used for that purpose. I think we need not grudge any outlay on famine relief when we take into consideration the fact that India is without a Poor Law and that in this country about three per cent. of the population are permanently on poor relief.
*THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of Onslow)My Lords, I desire to entirely associate myself with the opening remarks of the noble Lord in deploring the great extent and unusual severity of the famine in India, which has followed so closely on the famine of 1897–98. The fact that it has followed so closely upon its predecessor makes it somewhat difficult for me to reply as fully as I could wish to the inquiries of the noble Lord, because the Government of India having made careful inquiry through the Commission presided over by Sir James Lyall, had referred the report of that Commission to the different local governments with a view to obtaining their opinion on the many points raised, and naturally they had not had the advantage of learning what their views were before this famine was upon them. Nevertheless, I can assure the noble Lord that the Government of India very highly appreciate the work done by the Commission, and that the Secretary of State has communicated to the Government of India his appreciation of their labours with an expression of the hope that they will proceed with the least delay possible to do all that they can to carry into effect the recommendations of the Commission. During the week ending 3rd March, which is the last return we have, there were 4,374,000 persons receiving relief, and, according to the latest detailed reports, for the week ending 10th February, out of that total 84½ per cent. were employed on relief works and 15½ per cent. were receiving relief in other ways. Therefore, something like 584,000 people were receiving gratuitous relief. I am not able to tell the noble Lord how far the Govern- 17 ment of India have been also to make a programme of public works and of village works separately for the next famine. No doubt the matter has been under consideration, but the famine came upon them so quickly that they were obliged to make use of the material they had in hand, and to complete a detailed plan was not possible. The noble Lord no doubt knows that before Sir James Lyall's Commission reported, the practice of the Famine Codes was to divide those receiving relief into four classes—namely, professional labourers who were called upon to do a full task, labourers who were not professional and who were called upon to do 75 per cent. of the full task, able-bodied men who were not labourers and who were called upon to do 50 per cent. of the full task, and, lastly, those who were able to do some work, but, being weakly, were placed in the hands of the officers in charge of the relief works, who had to decide upon the task which should be imposed. The plan of classifying those who receive relief has been altered on the recommendation of the Commission, and they are now generally divided into the following classes:—There is a special class of men who are expert labourers and who are expected to perform a task superior to that of any other class. The two other main classes consist of the diggers—the men who are able to do harder work, and the carriers—those who are able to carry materials in baskets. In addition to these there are two other classes—children who are able to carry small baskets, and, lastly, those who are dependent on the other labourers and who are not able to do anything for themselves and are receiving gratuitous relief. With regard to the question as to what has been done and the cost of the famine, the latest information we have was about the end of January, and at that time the Viceroy anticipated that the cost would be something like three or possibly four crores of rupees. Between the time of the commencement of the famine and March 31 I am sorry to say that that expenditure is likely to be considerably increased. Although we have no official estimates we are led to believe that the expenditure during the financial years of 1899 and 1900 is likely to amount to as much as, and possibly more than, five crores of rupees. Your Lordships, of course, are aware that the officers entrusted with the relief works do not discriminate 18 between any of those who present themselves. They are prepared to put any man on who declares that he is in need of support and sustenance, and the reluctance to take advantage of the relief works is diminishing very much in its intensity, and persons are offering their services on the relief works in much larger numbers than was the case in former famines. The noble Lord asked whether any scheme had been devised for affording relief to the hill tribes. It is extremely difficult to get at the hill tribes, who cling to their forests and jungles, and endeavour to support themselves on their own fruits and wild roots; but at any rate in the Presidency of Bombay something has been done in the direction of employing the starving hill tribes to procure and cut fodder for the cattle which in other parts of Bombay are starving for the want of fodder. A very large sum of money indeed has been expended on irrigation, and there has been a very good return for the capital so invested. There are some very extensive works in the Punjab and Scinde, which are estimated to cost something like Rx.9,750,000. Those projects have not, of course, been put into operation in the short time that has elapsed between the last and the present famine; but at any rate something has been done in the direction of carrying out the recommendations of the Commissioners in that respect. As to the terms on which advances will be made to agriculturists for restocking their holdings, there are already in existence, as the noble Lord knows, Acts enabling the Government to make advances to agriculturists for the purchase of plough cattle and seed grains, and for the improvement of agricultural property. That, of course, is receiving the attention of the Government of India, and when the proper season arrives steps will no doubt be taken for facilitating such advances where needed. Something like a surplus of Rx.50,000 was left over from the funds subscribed for the former famine, which will, of course, be applied to the needs of the Present famine. The noble Lord and those who so liberally contributed to those funds will be glad to know that something like 71 per cent. of the whole was spent in giving a fresh start in life to those who had either eaten their seed grains or sold or lost by death their plough cattle. In addition to that the Government advanced over Rx.1,000,000 in 1896 19 and 1897 for the sinking of wells, the purchase of seed and plough cattle, and other purposes, whilst the Forest Department has done all in its power to throw open the forests for the grazing of cattle. I regret to say that the present famine is without a parallel in the history of India. When the last one occurred it was believed to be the greatest that had ever been experienced, but this one has left it far behind, and I fear will stand as a record. Fortunately, however, we were forearmed to meet these calamities. The extension of the railway system throughout India has enabled us to reach all parts of the affected area; but the natural consequence of the existence of the railway, of course, is that the price of grain food in different parts of the country is assimilated, and therefore, although there is not the same danger of acute suffering in particular localities, there is a general raising of the price of food throughout all parts of India. The Government of India are fully alive to the need for increased vigilance, and there is no danger that discrimination in granting relief will not be exercised. I think I have answered all the questions put to me. If there is any other information he may desire the Secretary of State will be only too glad to afford it to the noble Lord, who takes so great an interest in India, in which country he occupied so distinguished a position some years ago.