§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The DUKE of DEVONSHIRE)I move that the House now resolve itself into Select Committee on this Bill.
§ House went into Committee accordingly.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCILMy Lords, on Clause 1 I am in a position now to state the names of the gentlemen who will form the Commission. Probably it will be more regular to move that they be inserted in the Bill at a subsequent stage. I may, perhaps, say that they are the same as those contained in the Bill of last year, with one exception. Lord Lister was, for certain reasons, not 1163 anxious to be re-nominated, and his resignation has enabled us to repair an omission which had been made, and by which there was no Member on the Statutory Commission who was directly connected with the University College. The only change that has been made is the insertion of the name of Professor Michael Foster instead of Lord Lister. The names of the Commissioners are as follows: Lord Davey (Chairman), the Bishop of London, Sir William Roberts, M.D., Sir Owen Roberts, D.C.L., Professor Jebb, M.P., Professor Michael Foster, and Mr. Busk (Chairman of Convocation).
§ Clause 1 agreed to.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCILWith regard to Clause 2 there are some verbal amendments I wish to move. On page 2, line 11, I move to leave out "ninety-eight," and insert "ninety-nine," and in lines 16 and 17 to leave out "one thousand eight hundred and ninety-nine" and insert "one thousand nine hundred."
§ Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
§ *EARL STANHOPEMy Lords, I have given notice of a small Amendment to Clause 3, at the end of sub-section 1—viz., to add after the word "affected" the following words, "or the County Council of any county adjoining the County of London." The reason I move this Amendment is to include the Agricultural College of Wye, which has been established by the County Council for Surrey and Kent, within the purview of the Bill. The object of this college, which is doing really good work, is to give lectures, to try field experiments, and in other ways to promote agricultural research. It is just outside the 30 miles radius, but inasmuch as the Gresham Commission has recommended that there should be a Faculty of Agriculture attached to the University of London, I hope the Wye College, upon which the noble Duke has conferred the honour of a visit, will be favourably considered. We, who are interested in the Wye College, are anxious that it should 1164 have the advantages held out by the Bill, and that its professors should be, as it were, called "internal"—that is to say, included within the area of application to the Commission of the London University. This would not be contrary to the usual practice which has prevailed — viz., the grouping of colleges of University rank in territorial divisions. I may say that the Wye College is only just outside the 30 miles radius.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCILThe college is situated 60 miles away.
§ *EARL STANHOPEWe considered it was only 46 or 47 miles distant. It seems longer by rail, but we are not blessed with rapid trains in this part of England. I hope the noble Duke will be able to consider this matter.
§ *LORD ASHCOMBEMy Lords, as one of the Members representing the County of Surrey on the council of this college, I wish to support as strongly as possible the Amendment of my noble Friend. The Gresham Commission recognised that there should be a Faculty of Agriculture attached to the University of London. At the present moment there is no faculty provided for in the Bill. The Wye College is a thriving institution, and is doing excellent practical and scientific work. It is not only educating a number of young men, but its professors are giving lectures in various parts of the two counties, and carrying out scientific experiments. In addition to the visit of the noble Duke, it has already had one or two grants of Government money. I hope that, if the noble Duke feels he cannot agree to this Amendment now, he will take action subsequently on Report to relieve us of this grievance.
§ *LORD THRINGBeing a member of the County Council of Surrey, I ask that this college may be allowed to come within the University of London. It would be very hard indeed to the counties, which have made such a very great sacrifice, if this were not so. Surely, in this House, agriculture is not to be considered of little importance. Many other colleges with much less dignity than the 1165 Wye College will be included, and I earnestly hope the noble Duke will consent to the request made to him to-day. I am a Governor of Holloway College, and I am glad to see that that College is included. Although I cannot put Wye College on a par with Holloway College, I think it is one which ought to be included in the University of London, and I trust my noble Friend's application will be acceded to.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCILMy Lords, I am extremely anxious to meet, if possible, the wishes of the County Council and others who are interested in that very valuable institution, the Wye College. The object, however, of my noble Friends would not, I think, be entirely carried out by this Amendment alone, which would only enable the County Council of the counties interested to make representations to the Commissioners. In order to carry out the wishes which have been expressed further Amendments in the schedule would be necessary, one of which would refer to the 30 miles radius which has been mentioned. I have on several previous occasions had to mention that the conditions embodied in this schedule have been the result of a compromise between various interests arrived at after a great deal of negotiation and labour, and I am informed that one of the essential elements of that compromise was the insertion of some limit, and 30 miles was adopted as the limit. Well, my Lords, I am not altogether without hope that the difficulty may be got over, but I think it will be understood that I have to be very careful indeed how I disturb any of the provisions of that compromise which might lead to its being rejected by some of the parties to it. It is, therefore, necessary that I should make some further inquiries on the subject. I can assure my noble Friends that if I find it possible, without disturbing injuriously the compromise to which I have referred, I will see whether it is possible, on report, to insert a provision which would have the effect of admitting Wye College to any advantage which they might be able to obtain under the Bill.
§ *EARL STANHOPEMy Lords, I am thoroughly satisfied with the noble 1166 Duke's explanation. I think the position of Wye College is quite exceptional. No other county touching the London County Council, has, or is likely to have, an agricultural college, and in the interests of agriculture, in which we are all so much concerned, I trust the noble Duke will see his way to overcome the present difficulty. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
§ Clause 3 agreed to.
§ The remaining clauses agreed to without discussion.
§ LORD ASHCOMBEI had given notice to move in Section 8 of Part 1 of the Schedule, that after the words "University buildings," to add "and of the South Eastern Agricultural College of Wye"; but after what the noble Duke has said, I will not propose it. I withdraw it in the hope that we may have some satisfactory Amendments proposed from the Government Bench.
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYMy Lords, I have an Amendment to propose in the Schedule. It is that after the word "recognised" (page 6, line 27), the words "by the Senate" be inserted. I think it would be better that it should be made clear what is meant by the word "recognised" It means here "recognised by the Supreme authority of the University," and, therefore, I think it would be better to put in the words "by the Senate." And I also move that, after line 27, the following be inserted as a new sub-section: "(c) In determining who shall be recognised as teachers of the University, the Senate shall first consult the Academic Council." The University, hitherto, has been a University for examining only, but now it is proposed, to the great satisfaction of all of us, that there shall be a teaching University. The Academic Council is the Executive specially concerned with this teaching part of the University, and it seems obvious that this Academic Council ought to be particularly consulted in regard to the appointment of teachers of the University. These teachers are to be selected with a view especially to those 1167 students who belong to the teaching part of the University. I hope the noble Duke will be willing to allow the insertion of the words "by the Senate," and of the little additional sub-section.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCILMy Lords, I am prepared to assent in principle to the Amendment of the most rev. Prelate. I suggest that the two Amendments might be conveniently thrown into one. I do not think that a new sub-section is necessary. I think the object of the most rev. Prelate will be accomplished if sub-section B were to read as follows—
Members of the teaching staffs of public educational institutions, situate within a radius of 30 miles from the University, who have been recognised by the Senate, after consulting with the Academic Council, as teachers of the University.
§ Amendment agreed to.
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYMy Lords, I move that in line 32, page 7, after "represent" the words "as far as possible" be inserted. It stands here: "The Degrees conferred shall represent the same standard of knowledge and attainment." It is obvious it would be very difficult indeed to secure such a result as this except in a very broad and general sense, because the examinations will probably be conducted by different persons and will, to a certain extent, have a different character, and unless we put in some words which shall imply that there is not to be an attempt to do what is not really possible, I fear the time may come when it will be urged that the Senate ought to get rid of separate examinations in order to attain the object expressed in the words: "The Degrees conferred shall represent the same standard of knowledge and attainment." It is obvious, you may say, that these words are unnecessary, because they are understood, but I am rather anxious about this whole clause. The truth is, that if ever we get rid of separate examinations we shall drift back again 1168 into the very condition which we are striving now to get out of. The University of London was established, originally, with the idea of its being a teaching University, but it gradually became nothing more than an examining board. As an examining board it has done marvellously good work, but at the same time an examining board and a teaching University are two distinct things, and the result that is attained in the one case and the other is not always precisely the same. The real purpose of a teaching University is to bring the students into contact with great minds, and you want, therefore, above everything else, to get men of very great ability, and if possible genius, to be professors. The result will be that the inspiration of such men will make your University a real instrument for moulding the intellects of its students. There can be no question at all that you may have two men, who apparently have precisely the same amount of knowledge, and yet the one man has something about his knowledge which distinguishes him entirely from the other man. We constantly find, when we examine self-taught men, that there is a real difference between them and men who have been in contact with superior minds in their instruction. A man who has been in contact with a really superior mind has obtained something which his own personal learning would never have given him, and yet in an examination he would show the same amount of knowledge as the other man. It would be the same in quantity, but different in quality. I think this ought to be safeguarded in every possible way, and it is for this reason that I wish to insert these words. A little below, on the same page, and as part of the same clause, I wish to add, at the end of line 35, the following words: "and submitted to the Academic Council and the Council for external students." In every case a regulation, before it is passed by the Senate, should be fairly considered by the two Councils, which, are the executive of the Senate in doing all this work. They ought to be consulted in order to be able to put before the Senate what are the reasons for keeping up the system of separate examination. The maintenance of separate examinations is vital to the University if it is to be a teaching University. I know perfectly well that it 1169 is not easy to make this practically intelligible to those who have not themselves been engaged in teaching, but I doubt whether any real teacher would differ from what I am saying in regard to this.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCILI am not quite sure whether my noble Friend opposite has not some objection to the alteration proposed. I do not feel that I am a very competent authority to decide whether these words are necessary or not. It seems to me that the words contained in the schedule: "The Degrees conferred shall represent the same standard of knowledge and attainment," must necessarily mean, "as far as possible." The two separate examinations cannot represent an exactly equal or equivalent standard of knowledge or attainment, and I should have thought the words were unnecessary. However, unless objection is taken to them by my noble Friend opposite, I have no objection to their insertion.
§ LORD HERSCHELLI agree with the noble Duke that these words are not necessary, and that they produce no effect. At the same time I do not think they make any difference. With regard to what the most rev. Prelate has said about his fear lest the course which was adopted many years ago should be adopted again by the Senate—namely, that of endeavouring to destroy the teaching part of the University, and make it a mere examining University—I think this fear is altogether ill-founded, because it must be remembered that the circumstances are altogether changed. At the time that course was taken by the University, there was no provision for those external or non-collegiate students. They are now provided for, and there is no fear that the scheme will not be loyally carried out in letter and spirit by the Senate, when it comes into existence. At the same time, if the noble Duke sees no objection to the insertion of the words I see none, but if I am asked whether I think they make any difference I must candidly confess that I do not think they do, because they are implied in the provisions as they now stand.
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYI cannot, of course, say how the matter will work in the future. It is always difficult to prophesy these things. I should have preferred altering this clause altogether, but I supposed there was some agreement on the matter, and it seemed to me that as it was of no use to propose a complete alteration of it, the best thing to do would be to put in this safeguard.
§ *LORD THRINGMy Lords, I do not think it is advisable to put in the words "as far as possible." I have had great experience in examinations, and I do not agree with the most rev. Prelate as to their effect. A good examination shows the degree of knowledge which the man possesses, and I think the whole object of the clause is to make it plain to the public that the external students are not to be distinguished from the internal students. If you put in the words "as far as possible" it does intimate the possibility of there being a difference. I think the insertion of these words would be mischievous.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYMy Lords, I will not go into a discussion as to what the possible effect of the insertion of these words will be. I should be inclined to agree that they would make no difference. But the noble Duke is very well aware of the very extreme difficulty there has been in bringing about an agreement as to this Bill. None but those who have taken part in the proceedings are aware of the great jealousy existing between persons holding different views, and I should be rather afraid lest more objections should be raised by the insertion of these words. I suggest whether it would not be more prudent that the words, not being really necessary, should not be put in.
§ Amendment negatived and Schedule agreed to.
§ Bill as Amended reported to the House.