HL Deb 07 August 1896 vol 44 cc52-5

(1.) The Land Commission on making an advance may dispense with the whole or any part of the guarantee deposit being made or retained if they think the security for the repayment of the advance is sufficient without it. (2.) The Land Commission may, if they think fit, on application, pay to the persons entitled thereto the whole or any part of the guarantee deposit made or retained in respect of advances under the purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891, except in a case where any part of the deposit has been actually applied in pursuance of the Land Purchase Acts. (3.) In the case of any advance made otherwise than under the Purchase Land (Ireland) Act, 1891, the Land Commission may pay out of the guarantee deposit to the person entitled thereto a sum equal to the portion of the advance which at the end of any decade is ascertained under the provisions of this Act to have been repaid.

LORD CASTLETOWN

said the clause empowered the Land Commission when they saw fit to dispense with the whole or any part of the guarantee deposit. The Amendments he had to the clause would make it obligatory on the Land Commission to dispense with the guarantee deposit or any part thereof, but he put in words which gave them a governing power, perhaps not quite so stringent as that in the clause, but which he thought met the case better. He proposed that the clause should read— May dispense with the whole or any part of the guarantee deposit being made or retained, unless they think the security for the repayment of the advance is insufficient. It was merely inverting the sentence, and he thought it made the clause clearer while it gave the same power.

*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

said the Amendment, as it stood on the Paper, was clearly not a desirable one. The noble Lord had given notice to move to substitute the word "shall" for "may," but, of course, the sentence was governed by the words "if they think fit," and to say they shall if they think fit, instead of may, altered the sense very little. He understood that now the noble Lord proposed to invert the language of the clause. He would rather not accept any words in a clause which he had not seen and been able to examine.

LORD CASTLETOWN

said he would bring up the words on Report.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD CASTLETOWN

moved, in Subsection (2), to leave out the word "persons," and to insert instead thereof the word "person."

Amendment agreed to.

LORD CASTLETOWN

moved, in Subsection (2), to insert after "1891," "or the Redemption of Rent (Ireland) Act 1891." He thought there was an omission.

*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

said there was not an omission. This clause deals with the power of dispensing with the guarantee deposit, and he was told that in the Redemption of Rent (Ireland) Act 1891, there was nothing about guarantee deposit.

LORD CASTLETOWN

Oh, yes, there is, but I will withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD DE VESCT

moved in Subsection (3) to insert after the word "may" the words "at any time after the expiration of ten years from the making of the advance." He said the Amendment was to the effect that the Land Commission should pay out the guarantee deposit under the Act of 1885. As the sum still in the hands of the Land Commissioner under the Act of 1885 was not a very largo one, he thought the Commissioners might exercise some discretion in repaying it. He proposed that they should be empowered to repay it at the expiration of ten years. At present he believed the time was 17½ years. He asked the Government to remit the 7½ years. The security under the Act was ample. As the noble Marquess said the other day, at present there was only under the Acts of 1885 and 1891 the sum of about £4,000 outstanding and that was in process of collection.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

understood that under the Land Purchase Act of 1885, one of the most important elements in the security, was the existence of this guarantee deposit. On the basis and on the faith of that, the provisions were sanctioned by those in charge of the public purse. There was no other security except the honesty and reliability of the Irish tenants, and the House would have no sanction or warrant for withdrawing from the security or giving power to withdraw from the security what might be a substantial sum. The guarantee deposit was a portion of the security of the State and must be adhered to.

LORD CASTLETOWN

supported the Amendment. The noble and learned Lord said that the public purse must be protected. If they paid the guarantee deposit back up to the first ten years, they did help the public purse, because at the present time the Treasury was forced to pay 3 per cent. on the guarantee deposit. Therefore if the Treasury paid the guarantee deposit to those persons to whom it ought to go, the Treasury would cease to have to pay the 3 per cent., and, as was well known, Consols and Treasury money was now at 2¾ per cent. There was another important point to be considered. It was that the purchasers under the Act had already paid 10 years' instalments. Was it likely that a man who had paid 10 years' instalments would default. Every year his security was increasing in value, and the risk therefore to the State was lessening.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

said they were quite powerless in the matter. He felt the persuasive force of what had been said about 3 per cent., but that was a matter which ought to be put to the conscience of the Treasury.

LORD CASTLETOWN

asked if the noble and learned Lord would use a few persuasive words to the Treasury.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND

My noble Friend does not know the Treasury. [Laughter.]

LORD CASTLETOWN

thought it was possible the Treasury would agree to it. He did not think they realised what the point was.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 29,—