HL Deb 01 July 1895 vol 35 cc44-6

*LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY moved— That an humble address be presented to Her Majesty for Returns from Her Majesty's Consuls at Bordeaux, Marseilles, Dusseldorf, Hamburg, Buda-Pesth, and Trieste, stating the price of wheat per quarter or the equivalent, the price of household bread per pound or two kilogrammes or the equivalent, the amount of duty on foreign wheat per quarter, and the additional duty on foreign flour, if any, in their districts. He said that this Motion was non-contentious, since both Parties and both Front Benches were quite agreed not to disturb the system of unrestricted free imports, and, if there were two opinions, they would be equally interested in knowing the facts as shown by the practice in other countries. The reason for moving for these Returns was a speech at North Walsham by the late Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (the Earl of Kimberley), which had been repeated by Mr. Bryce at Aberdeen, to the effect that protective duties did not benefit the agriculturists and increased the price to the consumer. Shortly after the noble Earl said this, an Englishman at Bordeaux wrote to a London evening paper to say French farmers were getting 50 per cent. more for their wheat than English farmers. Be that as it may, the French duty of 6s. 6d. a quarter and the Germany duty, which was, perhaps, a little higher, were not protective duties, but duties for revenue, and they did not raise the price of bread in those countries above English prices. Unfortunately there was much distrust of one another in both France and Germany, so that in those countries perhaps the farmers' burdens were not lightened by the revenue raised from these duties; and these two Governments used these duties for the purpose of accumulating cartridges. Recent events had shown that, if we had 5s. a quarter duty, no Liberal Chancellor of the Exchequer would expend it on cartridges, neither would the farmers' burdens be lightened; it would probably be used for the payment of Members. He had recently made inquiries in Germany, and upon this contention with his noble Friend (the Earl of Kimberley) he stood to win on France and Germany, but he did not know what result returns from Austria would give. It might be taken that, in England, the 41b. loaf cost from 5d. to 6½d.; in France it costs 5d., and in Germany 6d.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I am certainly not going to trouble the House with a disquisition upon the effect of duties upon the prices of corn or bread; but I wish to say to my noble Friend that if he would take the trouble to read over the very valuable Consular Reports furnished from time to time I think he would admit that they amply confirm the statements which I made. I have made inquiry, and I am told that the Return as moved is not precise enough in its form. If I had still been responsible in the matter, I should have recommended my noble Friend to communicate with the officials of the Board of Trade, whose business it is to deal with these statistics in order to frame the Return in the form in which it could be most conveniently and usefully made.

THE PRIME MINISTER (The Marquess of SALISBURY)

That is exactly what I was going to recommend. The information the noble Lord desires is information it would be interesting to obtain; but it cannot be obtained and given precisely in the terms of the Motion. If the noble Lord will consult the experts either at the Board of Trade or at the Foreign Office, I have no doubt he will get the Motion worded in such a manner as to obtain what he wants. I shall not enter into any abstruse speculations as to the operation of protective duties. I reside sometimes in France; I have often made inquiries on this subject; and I believe these two things to be true:—the French agriculturist obtains a better price for his wheat; but he is no better off than the English agriculturist.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

That is exactly what I should have said.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.