§ VISCOUNT CROSSasked the Lord President of the Council whether the Education Department had declined to permit the Goodwin School at Carlisle to 1336 charge a small fee under Section 4 of the Elementary Education Act, 1891; and, if so, whether he was aware that a large number of parents and guardians of children resident in the district were anxious for a school at which higher-class elementary education could be obtained, and also that the said school should not be entirely free? He said, he had been informed that the school was now ready to be opened, and that the Education Department had been asked to sanction a fee of 1d. per week in addition to the grant, under the 4th section of the Act of 1891, by which power was given to allow a fee to be charged where it would be for the educational benefit of the district. Those interested in the school maintained that the proposal would be for the educational benefit of the district; but he was informed that the Education Department had come to a different conclusion both on the point of accommodation in the school and benefit to the district. He would also ask the Lord President whether he would not be pleased to order further inquiry to be made, because he was told by those interested in the matter (which was all he had to guide him) that there were schools in the neighbourhood which afforded ample accommodation.
§ VISCOUNT CROSSsaid, then that removed one ground of objection. With regard to the other, the educational benefit of the district, a Petition had been sent in to the Education Department stating that—
The undersigned parents and guardians of children living in the neighbourhood are anxious that the Trustees of the school should establish a high-class elementary day school for infants in the lower standards, and we earnestly hope the Education Department may see their way to sanction the payment of a weekly fee of 1d. in addition to the grant.They went on to say that they desired to have a Kindergarten teacher appointed, with the best Kindergarten and other appliances, and that they were willing to pay the fee, for they felt confident it would be of advantage to the children and the district that the school should be so carried on. That Petition was signed by a number of parents who were extremely desirous to have this education 1337 in addition to the elementary education which was absolutely free. If it was for the benefit of the district that this sort of high-class infant school should be established, he hoped, before the Department finally made up their minds upon the matter, they would make inquiries. Living as he did in the district, he felt confident that those who had informed the Education Department in the matter had not come to a wise conclusion. The noble Earl admitted they were wrong on the first point, and inquiry would show that they were wrong on the second.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYAs to the first point, I do not know who has been wrong. The Inspector's Report is that there is sufficient accommodation. The Inspector says there is no lack of free places in the neighbourhood.
§ VISCOUNT CROSSsaid, the letter he had received stated that the Education Department had declined to assent, first, because there was not sufficient accommodation in the district; and, secondly, because the new school would not confer the advantage stated.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYThe Report upon which we must act says that there is sufficient accommodation. Upon that point, therefore, there is nothing really to be said. The question really turns upon the second point. The Inspector states—
I cannot say that the school will provide any educational benefit not provided by other schools in the neighbourhood.It appears to be thought by some persons that if they are allowed to charge a fee they are to provide some very superior kind of school. Proper appliances and everything which is needed will be required to be provided by the Education Department free; and there is no reason why public money should be applied for the maintenance of a school which is unnecessary. If there were any educational advantage to be gained by the neighbourhood by the creation of this school, then it comes under the discretionary power of the Department as provided by the Statute. But we fail to see that any educational advantage will be afforded by this school. It is our duty to see that all schools have proper teachers and appliances, and we do not see why money should be provided out of the Public Revenue for the pur- 1338 pose of supplying more advantages than we are bound to give. Therefore, the general view we take is that it is not desirable that these fees should be allowed, though exceptions should, of course, be made in rare cases. There seems to be a desire in some places to use this loophole to escape, as it were, from the requirement of free education; and, therefore, the Department think it necessary to be very chary in permitting exceptions, though it would do so where it was shown to be for the advantage of the neighbourhood. Those are the grounds on which the refusal has been based, and they appear to me to be in principle sufficient.
§ VISCOUNT CROSSsaid, that knowing the way in which this school had been founded at Carlisle in memory of the late Bishop Goodwin, and the strong feeling in the district, he must ask the noble Earl whether he would not direct further inquiry to be made before coming to a final decision in the matter?
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYI cannot promise that any inquiry will be made by the Department; but I will myself make some inquiries in the matter.
*LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYasked how it was, as no amending Act had been passed since the Act giving Fee Grants, the Education Department had been able to make these requirements? They were requirements which trenched upon the privileges of the other House, and did nothing but increase the burdens of the taxpayers by adding taxes.