HL Deb 24 August 1893 vol 16 cc925-8

Bill read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments.

On Question, "That the Bill do pass?"

Clause 7.


said, that when this Bill was in Committee Amendments were made for the purpose of relieving subscribers to the voluntary schools of what would be a considerable charge upon them. But Clause 9 rendered that concession nugatory in the case of children who were paid for by the school authorities. He, therefore, proposed the following Amendment, which was really consequential.

Amendment moved, In page 3, line 41, after ("rates") to insert ("reduced by a sum equal to the contribution made by or received from parents under Section 9 (1).")—(The Lord Sandford.)


My Lords, I quite agree that it is necessary to make some Amendment, but I hope the noble Lord will be willing to adopt one which has been suggested by the draftsman as carrying out more completely what is intended. It is to this effect:— In Clause 7, to insert,—"For the purposes of this section there shall be included in local rates every sum received under this Act by a school authority from a parent and applied towards the general expenses of the school authority. I am sure the noble Lord will consider that that carries into effect what he desires. The draftsman assures me it will do so.


agreed to accept the Amendment in substitution for his own.

Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

Amendment (Earl of Kimberley) agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 9.


I have an Amendment in this clause the object of which is that fees paid by agreement shall not be included.

Amendment moved, In page 5, line 8, to leave out ("paid under the order") and insert ("received by a school authority under this section.")—(The Earl of Kimberley.")


said, he ought, perhaps, to apologise to the Lord President for having put down his second Amendment; and if the noble Earl would kindly give an explanation of the Reference to the provisions of the Education Act it might not be necessary to move it.


It will be observed that Clause 9 says— Where a school authority incur any expense under this Act in respect of any blind or deaf child, the parent of the child shall be liable to contribute towards the expenses of the child such weekly sum, if any, as, regard being had to the provisions of the Elementary Education Act, 1891, may be agreed on between the school authority and the parent. The object of the reference to the Education Act of 1891 is this. It is obvious that the parent of a child who is required by this Bill to attend a school in the same way as we require children to attend elementary schools should not be placed under any disadvantage as compared with the parent of a child who is not blind or deaf. The intention, therefore, is that in making any order care should be taken that nothing falls upon a parent in respect of the free education which ho would have a right to demand if the child was sent to an ordinary elementary school. It is quite obvious no one could desire that such a parent should be placed in a less favourable position. That is the whole object of the Reference, and I apprehend there will be no difficulty in providing for it.


asked, as the cost was much greater in these special schools than in ordinary elementary schools, and the limit in the Act was 10s., whether it was; proposed to limit the grant to 10s.? He asked that question because he bad been unable to get any explanation of the matter, and the clause as it stood seemed unintelligible.


I cannot say exactly what sum would be allowed, but it is quite clear the intention is that the parent should not be placed at a disadvantage. If you take his child and place it in an institution against his wish, it is quite clear he should not, as regards that child, be made to pay anything which ho would not be compelled to pay if the child were sent to an ordinary school. It is true there is some additional expense; but that is thrown upon the parent by the action of the law, and it would be extremely unfair that a parent who has the misfortune to have a deaf and dumb child should be placed under a disadvantage. There are other institutions to which these children may be sent which are not elementary schools; but power is given by this Bill to make grants to these schools, and those grants will be made with reference to the amounts which might be fairly taken into consideration in reference to the parent having free education for the child. I do not think there will be any difficulty in carrying it into effect.


said, after that explanation he would not move his proposed Amendment to leave out the Reference to the Education Act and insert that regard should be had to the means of the parent.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.


moved, as a new clause— The Education Department shall annually lay before both Houses of Parliament a report of their proceedings under this Act during the preceding year, and in that report shall give lists of the schools to which they have granted and refused certificates under the Act during the year, with their reasons for each such refusal.

Clause agreed to.

Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.