ADDRESS TO THE QUEEN. (Hansard, 8 May 1874)

§ THE DUKE OF BEAUFORT
said, that he would not press the Motion of which he had given Notice for an Address to Her Majesty, praying Her to withhold Her Assent from the scheme of the 1918 Endowed Schools Commissioners respecting the foundation of Edward Lewis for a school at Gelligaer, provided the clauses which affected the religious teaching of the school were struck out. These clauses were the 55th and 56th, and were what were generally known as the Cowper-Temple clauses.

THE BISHOP OF LLANDAFF
said, he understood that under the Act of last year a clause might be expunged from the scheme without affecting the scheme itself. If that were so, his objections were very much removed. He had no hostility to the general scope of that scheme, the provisions of which, with the exception to which he was about to refer, would confer great benefit on the district. It was clearly the intention of the Founder that the school should be in connection with the Church of England, and that intention was as clearly violated by the introduction of those clauses. His objection to the introduction of the Cowper-Temple clause of the Education Act into this and another Welsh scheme was that—as acknowledged by the Commissioners—it had not been inserted in any English scheme; and though he accepted their disclaimer of any intention of treating Wales as an experimentum in corpore vili, it would be impossible to convince the clergy that this was not the principle adopted. He himself, and all the other members of the Board, had no idea of such an innovation having been made when they assented to the scheme. He also objected to another proposition of the scheme, that seven of the nine members of the new Governing Body should be elected by three school boards and the Board of Guardians, fearing that, as the remaining two would be co-opted members, the whole body would ultimately be of an inferior class. He denied that the Church of England was irrecoverably lost in Wales. People were not Dissenters from any distinct notion of the difference between the Church and their own bodies, but from circumstances not at present within control, and were they let alone, and 1919 not stimulated by political rather than religious feelings, many of them would entertain very different opinions. In spite of the increase of the population of his diocese since the beginning of the century from 107,000 to 503,000; of the existence of two languages, entailing double ministrations; and of the alienation of a considerable portion of the rent-charge, the position of the Church had greatly improved, and he saw no reason for exceptional treatment.

§ LORD ABERDARE
regretted that this difference had arisen, and was sorry to find himself opposed to a right rev. Prelate so attentive to his duties, consistent in conduct, and liberal in all that affected the interests of the Nonconformists. The objection taken by the right rev. Prelate was confined solely to the provision in reference to religious instruction and worship in the school. If their Lordships looked to the will of the Founder of the school they would not find in that part which related to the school one word which indicated what his religious opinions were, or one sentence from which it could be inferred that he desired that his school should be a purely Church of England school. No doubt he was a member of the Church of England, but of the seven trustees whom he appointed, at least two were Dissenters, and there was not a sentence in the will which implied what manner of religious instruction should be given in the school. The noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Richmond) the other evening laid down a principle which might properly and usefully be applied to all such endowments. It was this—that they should deal with such cases in the manner in which the Founder would if he were now alive. What would Mr. Lewis be likely to do now if he were alive and had an opportunity of studying the working of the Education Act, and seeing the present condition of the district he proposed to benefit? The circumstances were completely changed—he would now find himself in the midst of a working population of some 9,000 persons, four-fifths of whom were Dissenters. Would he be at all likely to seek to impose upon the children of his Dissenting neighbours the necessity of learning the Catechism of the Church of England? But it was said that there existed a "conscience clause," of which those who objected to such teaching might take advantage. 1920 For his part, he denied that the conscience clause was ever intended for such a case. It had never been applied, except for the protection of small minorities, and in the present case it would be wholly inapplicable. The right rev. Prelate would find that even in his own diocese some clergymen of the Church of England, from a sense of justice and propriety, and he might say decency, exempted the children of Dissenters attending their schools from the necessity of learning a Catechism to which—if they did not ridicule it—they were, at all events, indifferent. He hoped the noble Duke would not lend the authority of his high position to the assertion of a principle such as that which was contended for by the right rev. Prelate.

THE BISHOP OF LLANDAFF
observed, that the will of the Founder did distinctly indicate what his religious opinions were.

§ LORD ABERDARE
But not that part of it which referred to the school.

THE BISHOP OF LLANDAFF
said, that if the noble Lord referred to the will, he would find that the Founder of this charity, in leaving £40 for the purpose of building a school, had expressly declared that it should be built near to the church at the place in question, and he did so evidently with the intention that the children should go to that church.

§ LORD ABERDARE
reminded the right rev. Prelate that at the time the gift was made the whole population was small, and were collected together in the immediate neighbourhood of the church.

§ LORD LYTTELTON
confessed that he did not, in the abstract, like the clause to which exception was taken, and which was known as the Cowper-Temple clause; but he knew no conceivable case in which it was more justifiable than in the one under consideration. As to the constitution of the Governing Body, he believed it was the best representative body that could be obtained.

§ THE DUKE OF RICHMOND
said, that the scheme in question had been brought under his notice some time ago by the noble Duke behind him (the Duke of Beaufort), who had fully expressed the objections which he entertained to its provisions. He had given the subject his best consideration, and he found that the trustees, including the 1921 Bishop of the diocese, had informed the Endowed Schools Commissioners that they thought that the scheme was a good one, and ought to pass into law. On the whole, he did not think that there were sufficient grounds for asking their Lordships to advise Her Majesty not to give her assent to the scheme as a whole, and he therefore proposed to strike out the Cowper-Temple clause, and to allow the rest of the scheme to pass. Two school boards had already been established for the district, and he was informed that, in a very short time, they would be able to provide for all its educational wants.