HL Deb 12 April 1872 vol 210 cc1130-3

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE rose to move for, Copies of any recent communications to the Board of Trade, or any other department of Government from grand juries in Ireland, relating to proposed sales of Railways or amalgamations of Railway Companies; and to ask, Whether the Government object to lay before Parliament the information respecting the value of Irish Railways obtained by Captain Tyler under the authority of Government? He could not help thinking that for many years past the Government and Legislature had shown great apathy in regard to this matter. In Ireland there was neither real competition nor amalgamation of the railway interests. The people had suffered from contests between railway companies, which had been carried on not for the public benefit, but for that of rival companies; and when combinations followed from these contests, the public bad not gained the advantages which would have resulted from thoroughly good and well-regulated amalgamations. Neither the question of purchase nor that of amalgamation was a new one. The Commission presided over by the Duke of Devonshire had long ago recommended amalgamation as especially suited to the Irish railways, and had expressed its opinion that a different railway system was required in Ireland from that which was adapted to the other portions of the United Kingdom. Lately, the question of amalgamation in the case of the railways of the United Kingdom had been referred to a Joint Committee, which had been appointed to consider the great schemes of amalgamation in this country, and not one Irishman except the President of the Board of Trade. He could not approve that course, knowing, as he did, that the Irish railways stood in a totally different position from such extensive lines as the London and North-Western and the Lancashire and Yorkshire. In Ireland there were a number of very short lines, some of which had not working arrangements with each other, and some of which went to make up the railway system between towns which ought to be served by one line, managed by one board of directors. The distance between Dublin and Belfast was about the same as that between London and Birmingham, and yet the traveller passing from Dublin to Belfast went over the lines of three independent companies. Those companies might fall out—such an occurrence was not without precedent—and the result would be such an amount of inconvenience to the public as they might think it for their interest to inflict on "through" passengers. The great enterprize and wonderful wealth of this country enabled it to maintain a system which would be utterly ridiculous in Ireland. As he had stated to their Lordships on a former occasion, when he brought this subject under their consideration, Captain Tyler had been making inquiries of the directors of Irish companies with respect to the value of their lines. The fact had been stated by the chairmen of those companies at meetings of the proprietors, and Mr. Cusack, chairman of the Midland Great Western Railway Company, had observed that if these inquiries had not been made with some direct object, it was hardly right that the railway market should have been exposed to the result which must follow from them. He (the Marquess of Clanricarde) concurred with Mr. Cusack. It was everywhere believed that the inquiries of Captain Tyler had been instituted with a view to the purchase of these railways by Government, and the fact had produced a mischievous effect in alternately raising and depressing the price of shares. Even as long ago as 1838, the question of a State purchase of the Irish railways had been entertained; and in 1867, under the Government of the late Lord Derby, when the noble Duke (the Duke of Richmond) was at the head of the Board of Trade, a Commission was appointed, whose inquiries were to include all Irish railways whether completed or not. The Order of Reference recited that the attention of the Commission was to be directed to all the facts which the Commissioners might think it would be prudent for an individual or a company to require to be made acquainted with, as a preliminary to entering on the question of purchase as a commercial speculation. Soon after the commencement of the present Session, questions were asked in both Houses as to the inquiries made by Captain Tyler, and as to that gentleman's communications on the subject to the Board of Trade. In their Lordships' House Lord Dufferin then stated that Captain Tyler had been authorized—or he (Lord Dufferin) should rather say permitted—to make those inquiries. If a Department of the Government had authorized or permitted Captain Tyler to make those inquiries, could it be supposed for one moment that they had been made for Captain Tyler's own private information? If the Government had Captain Tyler's Report under consideration, with a view to making some proposal with reference to the Irish railways, that might be a good reason for not producing it at the present moment; but if such was not the case, it was scarcely fair either to that distinguished officer or to the country not to produce the Report. He, therefore, begged to move for the Correspondence mentioned in his Notice.

Moved, that there be laid before this House, Copies of any recent communications to the Board of Trade or any other department of Government from grand juries in Ireland, relating to proposed sales of Railways or amalgamations of Railway Companies.—(The Marquess of Clanricarde.)

EARL COWPER

said, he had informed the noble Marquess before the Recess that the only communication received up to that time by the Board of Trade from an Irish Grand Jury was one from the Grand Jury of Waterford, which was against an alleged sale of the Waterford and Limerick line to the Great Southern and Western Company. Since then there had been several communications from other Grand Juries and from Boards of Guardians to the same effect. If the noble Marquess wished it, he would consent to the Motion for the production of these communications; but as it was the intention of the Government to bring them under the notice of the Joint Committee on Railway Amalgamation, perhaps the noble Marquess would not think it necessary to have them laid on the Table. As Lord Dufferin had stated on a former occasion, Captain Tyler had not been sent to Ireland to make the inquiries to which the noble Marquess had referred. Captain Tyler happened to be in Ireland, and he asked permission from the Board of Trade to make those inquiries. He must again tell the noble Marquess that Captain Tyler had made no Report on the subject. His communications were in the shape of conversations with respect to the value of the Irish railways, and there were no Papers to be produced.

THE EARL OF BANDON

explained that the Memorials which had been presented from the South of Ireland had reference only to a proposed amalgamation between the Waterford and Limerick Railway Company and the Great Southern and Western Railway Company, and not to any general scheme of amalgamation. Without urging the Government to adopt any particular plan, he implored of them to come forward with some proposal to remedy the evils which had been pointed out by the noble Marquess.

Motion agreed to: Return ordered.