SECOND READING.

HL Deb 20 July 1860 vol 159 cc2216-9

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE moved that the Bill be now read the second time. The measure had received the support of men of all parties in Ireland. Last year a measure on the same subject passed the other House without opposition, and stood for a second reading in their Lordships' House on the 14th of April. Parliament, however, having been prorogued a few days afterwards, the Bill necessarily dropped. It had been objected to the Bill that these tramways would be so good and so cheap that they would compete with the established railways; but there was a clause in the Bill which amply provided against any such consequence. There were, too, all kinds of securities in the Bill against the invasion of the rights of property—much ampler securities, in fact, than at present existed in the case of common roads. A great deal of pains had been taken by the Select Committee of the other House with this Bill, and it had passed through the House without any opposition. Under this Bill tramways could be made at a less expense than if a special Act were necessary, and they would be extremely convenient in the crowded parts and suburbs of Dublin, if conducted upon the system which had been so successful in America. He was informed upon good authority that in that country 34,000,000 persons had been carried with only twelve cases of bodily injury, and he defied comparison in safety between tramways and any other kind of conveyance. Upon every ground he trusted their Lordships would not refuse to give the Bill a second reading.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2^a

LORD MONTEAGLE

said, that the measure would prove very advantageous to Ireland; but he thought some of its provisions would require careful consideration in Committee, and it might appear at first to some noble Lords that the Bill contained extraordinary and surprising powers; but they should recollect that in Ireland roads could be made without the sanction of Parliament for the purpose, while in England the consent of Parliament would be necessary in the first instance. He should be most happy to give his support to the Bill being read a second time.

LORD REDESDALE

said, he concurred in the advantages of tramways under certain circumstances, and he did not see why, if land was allowed to be taken for railways, it should not be allowed to be taken for tramways. But he must warn their Lordships that this Bill proposed to introduce a new principle into their private legislation. It proposed, by a general Act, to confer the power of taking land to the decision of an inferior tribunal. Now, if this were done, there was no reason why tramways should not have the same privileges as railways, and he put it to their Lordships whether they were prepared to allow such undertakings to be carried out without the specific sanction, in every case, of a Parliamentary Committee. But he believed in point of fact the real object of the Bill was to promote the establishment of tramways, to be ultimately converted into railways. If any system for taking land by a more economical method could be introduced it ought not to be legislated for Ireland only, but for the entire country. If this system were adopted it would be necessary to have a Railway Board.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE

There would be the Board of Works.

LORD REDESDALE

These tramways would be worked by animal power, and would cross inconveniently roads on a level, and inferior lines might be selected and made that it would hereafter be difficult to convert into railways, or make locomotive power applicable. Unless their Lordships were prepared to alter this Tramways Bill into a Railway Bill, and introduce an alteration into the whole principle of private legislation as regarded Ireland, he thought they should not sanction this Bill.

THE EARL OF LUCAN

said, he had the strongest possible objection to the Bill. If the Bill was good for Ireland, it was equally so for England and Scotland; but if it was returned to the House of Commons with that addition, it would not receive a moment's consideration from the House. The railway interest would not tolerate it. The Bill was for the establishment of railways under the disguise of tramways. The horse tramways which would be constructed under the Bill if it passed, would, after a time, be converted into locomotive railways to compete with those already in existence. Would they think of substituting the grand jury in Ireland for the Legislature in these matters? According to the Bill the company was not to be formed until it had gone before the grand jury and a deposit was paid. The grand juries were to act under the advice of the county surveyor; and the result would be that they would become the agents of the tramway company. In short, it would be a job that would run through the whole country. The Bill was an unjust Bill, a tyrannical Bill, and inconsistent with right and justice. He should move its rejection, and propose that it be read on that day six months.

Amendment moved, to leave out ("now,") and insert ("this Day Six Months").

LORD LIFFORD

said, there was no fear that inferior lines of tramway would run across the country, because as much care was taken to select good lines as in the case of railways. The lines must be approved by the Irish Board of Works, and afterwards by the Lord Lieutenant, and then ultimately they must come before Parliament for approval, the only difference being that the Lord Lieutenant would take charge of each Bill, and that the promoters would be saved the expense of a private Bill. He trusted that their Lordships would read the Bill a second time.

THE EARL OF MAYO

said, he came down with the intention of opposing this Bill, believing that there was an ultimate design of turning these tramways into railways. After hearing the speeches of the noble Lords who advocated the Bill, he had, however, altered his opinion, and should support the second reading.

After a few words from the Marquess of CLANRICARDE,

THE EARL OF LUCAN

withdrew his Amendment, but intimated that he should renew it if the Bill were passed in anything like its present shape by the Select Committee.

Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn. Then the original Motion agreed to. Bill read 2^a accordingly, and referred to a Select Committee; and on the Monday following the Lords following were named of the Committee:—

M. Bath	L. Ponsonby
E. Derby	L. Redesdale
E. Mayo	L. Mont Eagle (M. Sligo)
E. Lucan
E. Ducie	L. Silchester (E. Longford)
V. Leinster
V. De Vesci	L. Somerhill (M. Clanricarde)
V. Lifford
V. Hutchinson (E. Donoughmor)	L. Worlingham
	L. Stanley of Alderley
V. Eversley	L. Monteagle of Brandon
L. Boyle

House adjourned at half-past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.