HL Deb 14 July 1856 vol 143 cc730-3

House in Committee (according to Order).

Clauses 1 to 11 were agreed to.

Clause 12,

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, to strike out the clause.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

supported the clause, and expressed his surprise that the noble Duke had not stated the grounds upon which he proposed its rejection. The present Bill was in the nature of a compromise, agreed upon by the Scotch Members of various opinions in the other House, and it was the minimum that would be accepted by a large class of persons. The question, therefore, was, whether their Lordships would reject the present Bill with all its acknowledged advantages. The endowments of the Church of Scotland rested in that country, as in this, upon the principle of property, while the endowments of the parochial schools rested upon the principle of taxation. It was therefore necessary to come to Parliament when it was proposed to raise the income of schools and schoolmasters. No doubt there would be a few Dissenting masters elected under the Bill, but he believed the number would be very small; and if it should have the effect of demonstrating the feasibility of amalgamating the teaching of children of different sects under one master a great advantage would, in his opinion, be obtained. In that manner the Bill might possibly be the means of founding a more national system; but, at all events, it would be regarded for many years to come as a complete settlement of the question.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

admitted that the Bill was very different from the Bill of last Session, but even this measure was not supported by the class most interested in the subject. Although there was a majority for the third reading, the county Members were as two to one against it. The borough Members voted for it, and a great deal was said about increased means of education, but if greater means of education were needed, surely the large towns ought not to be overlooked. Nothing would have been heard of the Bill had not the schoolmasters' salaries become so reduced by the alterations in the prices of corn and other produce as to justify some proposition to meet their case. The connexion of the parochial schools with the Established Church of Scotland had been most intimate ever since their first formation, and he could not help believing that the present Bill was intended to afford an opportunity for substituting Free Church schoolmasters for masters who were members of the Established Church. It could not truly be said that the teaching in the parochial schools at present was at all of a sectarian or exclusive character. Their doors were open to children of Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, and Dissenters of all kinds, and those children did attend without any complaints on the part of their parents. If anything could be said to be a truly national system, he thought the parochial school system of Scotland was one. The great majority of those who were taxed to support the schools were, he believed, in favour of the existing system, and he would remind their Lordships of the declaration signed about two years ago by 1,970 heritors of Scotland, who signed their approval of the present system, and desired the maintenance of the connexion of those schools with the Established Church; and he knew there was a most anxious desire on the part of the heritors generally to extend the system of education and to increase the salaries of the schoolmasters from their own resources. For himself, it was not until after the most anxious consideration and much communication with persons out of that House, that he had come to the conclusion of moving the rejection of the clause. He had been pressed to oppose the second reading, but, believing there was much in the measure which was worthy of consideration, he had abstained from taking that extreme course. He, however, felt bound to move the omission of the 12th clause.

LORD PANMURE

denied that the Bill had originated in any desire to introduce members of the Free Church as masters of the parochial schools, and he believed that if the Bill were passed in its present shape there would not be a dozen Free Church schoolmasters nominated throughout the whole country. If the clause were rejected, it would be almost tantamount to rejecting the Bill, for in all probability the other House would reintroduce the clause, and if their Lordships should persist in opposing it the Bill would be lost. All that was asked by the Bill was, that the schoolmaster should be appointed without being required to take any test. Whether they had a test or not from the persons keeping these schools, their Lordships might be sure that they would have none but God-fearing men in that situation.

THE EARL OF HADDINGTON

supported the Amendment. He and his Friends were willing to accept the Bill if the noble Baron would consent to strike out the clause.

On Question, their Lordships divided:—Content 50; Not Content 20: Majority 30.

List of the CONTENT.
DUKES. Haddington BARONS.
Buccleuch Home Abinger
Hamilton Lucan Boston
Montrose Longford Blantyre
Roxburgh Leven and Melville Bagot
Colville of Culross
MARQUESSES. Morton
Bath Mansfield Calthorpe
Lothian Romney Clarina
Westminster Selkirk Colchester
EARLS. Stradbroke Dynevor
Bradford Verulam Dunsandle
Bathurst Denman
Derby VISCOUNTS. De Lisle
Desart Combermere Grantley
Donoughmore Dungannon Kinnaird
Delawarr Melville Redesdale
Galloway St. Vincent Ravensworth
Hardwicke Strathallan Southampton
Harewood Wynford
List of theNOT CONTENT.
Lord Chancellor Bessborough Foley
DUKES. Fortescue Manners
Argyll Harrowby Overstone
Somerset Somers Panmure
MARQUESSES. VISCOUNT. Rivers
Clanricarde Torrington Saye and Sele
Headford BARONS. Stanley of Alderley
EARLS. Byron
Aberdeen De Tabley Wrottesley.

Motion agreed to; clause struck out.

Clause 13,

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

proposed to strike out the first four lines of the clause, with the view of inserting other words relating to the qualification of schoolmasters.

After short discussion, Amendment withdrawn, and clause agreed to.

Clause 14 struck out; remaining clauses agreed to, with Amendments.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

then intimated to the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Buccleuch) that, in consequence of the Amendment which had been carried on a division, the Bill could no longer be considered the Bill of the Government.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

repudiated the charge of the Bill. The measure was brought in by the Government, and they must take care of it.

Report of the Amendments to be received on Thursday next.

House adjourned till To-morrow.

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