HL Deb 09 May 1853 vol 126 cc1289-91
EARL FITZWILLIAM

having risen to give a notice, was met with loud calls for the Orders of the Day. Several Bills having been read 3a and passed, the noble Earl again rose to give notice,

LORD BEAUMONT

called to order. They had adopted certain rules of proceeding. He protested against those rules as being too stringent, but having adopted them they ought to be governed by them.

EARL FITZWILLIAM

again said he wished to give notice. [Calls of "Order!"]

The EARL of CLANRICARDE

moved that this House do now adjourn.

EARL FITZWILLIAM

said, he was not going to make a speech, he was only going to give notice that to-morrow—

LORD REDESDALE

rose to order.

The EARL of CLANRICADE

repeated, the Motion for adjournment, for the purpose of remarking on the position in which they now were. The time allotted by the rule for the presentation of petitions had been occupied by the interesting speeches of the two right reverend Prelates on other matters; and the consequence was that noble Lords who, like himself, had petitions to present, were precluded from doing so. The petitions, might refer to Bills to be passed that evening; and if so, there was no fair opportunity given to the people to petition. He was unprepared to make a Motion on the subject; but he thought a too strict adherence to the rule most inconvenient. The noble Earl on the cross benches rose to give a notice which would have evidently not occupied two minutes of their Lordships' time; but if he was prevented doing that, and if they were prevented from entering upon important discussions at the most opportune moment, by the operation of the rule, it was quite clear the rule ought to be altered.

The EARL of WICKLOW

said, every argument used now was just as applicable when the rule was agreed to by a large majority of their Lordships, and that a violation of it, if only for two minutes, was just as much a violation as if for an hour. It was desirable it should be adhered to, and he hoped every infraction of it would be resisted.

LORD REDESDALE

said, the noble Earl might give his notice after the Orders? of the Day; and the objection of the noble Marquess was met by the Standing Order, which stated that petitions relating to any Bill might be presented at any time before the Motion was made. He trusted their Lordships would adhere to their own order. The course of proceeding in their Lordships' House had, it must be admitted, been considerably improved, and there had been much greater tendency to discuss questions fairly and practically, from Members having notice of the particular time at which they would be brought forward. But if the existing Orders were infringed in the slightest degree, they would never be able to adhere to rule, and the inconvenience would return which at present they bad got rid of.

The EARL of ABERDEEN

said, the explanation of the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees had removed all inconvenience upon the subject. All that was required was for the noble Earl, as soon as the Orders of the Day had been disposed of, to give his notice. It might cause him some slight inconvenience to wait; but regulations had been adopted which, upon the whole, had worked well, and it would be very unwise to infringe them.

EARL FITZWILLIAM

said, he had been most improperly called to order. He had infringed no order, and he did not propose to present any petition; he had not even proposed to ask a question from a Minister, nor did he propose to originate any discussion upon any subject whatever. He intended simply to intimate that, with reference to the business of to-morrow, he should tomorrow make a Motion that there should be laid before the House an account of all moneys paid by the Ecclesiastical and Church Estate Commissioners to lawyers and surveyors in their employ, and also an account of all moneys which might have been paid to those lawyers and to those surveyors by any cathedral or collegiate church, or any of their lessees. Now he had given his notice.

LORD REDESDALE

, in order to satisfy the noble Earl that he had been out of order would read the words of the rule that had been adopted, namely, "That after 5 o'clock the House would proceed, at the desire of any Peer, with the business on the paper in preference to any other matter."

EARL FITZWILLIAM

That does not say a Peer is not to get up and give notice that he will make a Motion. I think the cases are totally different.

On Question, Resolved in the negative.