§ The EARL of SHAFTESBURYhaving presented a petition from Beckenham, praying that nunneries may be subjected to a more efficient system of inspection and control
The ARCHBISHOP of DUBLINsaid, that a Bill had been brought into Parliament for effecting the same object as was prayed by the petition just presented by the noble Earl, and by other petitions of the same kind; but as he should be absent when it came on for discussion in their Lordships' House, he trusted their Lordships would excuse his saying a few words upon this occasion. He heartily concurred in the general prayer of those petitions, for it was his full conviction that some additional protection was wanted for the liberty of individuals, not from the oppression of the Government, but of other individuals. In the ultra-Liberalism, and the other "isms" with which he had been charged, he had never been charged with a wish to abridge the civil or religious liberties of his fellow-subjects; and he meant to cast no imputation upon Christians of any particular denomination; but the possibility, and he must add the probability, of great oppression being exercised in secret matters, did, as he thought, call for some legislative interference; and he was convinced that a Bill might be framed, that ought to be passed, not so much to abridge as to secure the liberties of individuals. Their Lordships might consider whether it was not possible, virtually, that such a thing as imprisonment or transportation for life might be inflicted upon persons without its coming to the knowledge of any persons connected with them, and without their having any 1287 means of redress. Now, suppose a young Woman—though he did not see why legislative interference should be confined to one sex—was received as a novice in some institution, and was placed under coercion. Her friends might have some suspicion about her, but on inquiry her existence was denied. They were told that nothing was known about her—or, if the novice were in the house, they were told she was too unwell to see such and such a person, or wished to have nothing more to do with them. And it must be remembered that there were institutions in this island which were affiliated with similar institutions on the Continent. Therefore as he had said, persons might he sentenced to undergo the illegal penalty not only of imprisonment, but of transportation for life; and it was no such impossible a thing when inquiries likely to be troublesome or dangerous were set on foot, for a person to be spirited away to some foreign institution, and there for ever to be kept out of the sight or knowledge of his or her friends. He would mention a case that had come under his own knowledge, and for the accuracy of which, therefore, he could vouch. It occurred very lately. A young boy was in the service of a certain institution, and resided there. Fortunately he had a father and mother alive; and occasionally he went home to see his parents, but upon one occasion he did not go to visit them as usual. They became alarmed, and inquired about him, but were put off by an evasive answer. At last they became very much alarmed and excited, and went at the head of a body of police to the institution and demanded him, and he was produced; but he was in so dreadfully mangled and lacerated a state, as to make one's blood curdle at the thought of the cruelties that had been inflicted upon him. The wish appeared to be to incarcerate him until his wounds were healed. If he had not had a father and a mother living, their Lordships might guess what chance he would have had of redress. Another instance had come to his knowledge, in which he was unable to prove that any unfair means had been resorted to, but he would suggest whether such a thing was not possible. A lady in Dublin, most of whose relatives were Roman Catholics, had formerly belonged to that Church, but was then, and had been for many years, a member of the Established Church, and brought up her children as Protestants. She was frequently assailed with offers of pecuniary assistance—being 1288 in very narrow circumstances—if she would return to the Church of Rome. Her Protestant friends and acquaintances—relatives she had none—procured for her a situation in England, where she might live with tolerable ease and comfort, and be free from that mode of molestation. A passage was even engaged for her in a vessel, but just at that time she disappeared, and had never been seen by any of her friends since. They inquired earnestly for her; they traced her from one house to another, and at last ascertained where she was, but could only obtain a message from her saying she had returned to the Church of Rome, and wished to have no further intercourse with her former friends. That might be all very true, but it certainly would have been more satisfactory, more calculated to lay aside all suspicion, if she had been produced and said that herself. Remonstrances were made, but in vain, and at last a letter was produced from her which all her friends considered was not in her handwriting. The message and the letter might be from her; but if some legislative enactment had been in existence which would have compelled her production, he put it to their Lordships whether it would not have been more creditable to the institution itself that its innocence should be established, rather than that it should continue under an unjust suspicion. It was not many months ago that that had occurred. That really showed what every one must feel might possibly take place; and surely some redress might be devised such as the law did not now afford. They had been told that if it could be ascertained that a person was confined illegally, the law afforded a remedy; but it was the most difficult thing to ascertain whether a person was illegally confined, and in most cases, if there was any such unfair procedure, it might be so conducted as to make it impossible satisfactorily to prove that it had taken place. For the credit, then, of the institutions themselves, it was desirable that some legalised mode of inquiry should be established. If he were prepared to do so, he should not upon that occasion go into the details of such a measure as he thought desirable; but so far from being an encroachment on domestic privacy, or freedom, civil or religious, he was convinced that a measure of this kind was called for for the better security of the freedom of his fellow-countrymen.
The BISHOP of NORWICHhoped that some such measure as that referred to by 1289 the right rev. Prelate would be framed to secure the main object of these petitions, at the same time avoiding all undue interference with the religious institutions and privileges under discussion. He could not but concur with the right rev. Prelate in thinking that such a measure would be for the credit of the institutions themselves, for, being conducted on their present system of secrecy, they could not exist in this country without suspicion, and, it might be, unmerited obloquy. The right rev. Prelate had referred to some cases that had come under his own knowledge; he also would mention one case that had come under his immediate observation some few years ago. He was at that time residing in the neighbourhood of Dublin; an application was made to him by a Roman Catholic mother, who asked him to obtain some information respecting a particular nunnery in which her child, about 15 years old, had been placed. There was no doubt she was in a nunnery, and the mother did not intend to resist the destination of her child—she thought, indeed, that such a wish would be sinful—but she wanted to know where her child really was, and occasionally to have access to her. She made application to him under the impression that he was a Roman Catholic priest, and he felt himself bound to undeceive her, and the result was, that he did not obtain entire possession of the circumstances of the case; but he gave her the best advice in his power, that was, he referred her to Dr. Murray, the late Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, under the impression—which he was sure if their Lordships had had the same acquaintance with him that he had, they would have shared—that he would obtain for her all the satisfaction she wished. But, at the same time, it was not right that an ecclesiastical authority like that of Dr. Murray, however well-disposed, should have a control over the civil rights of individuals. How did they know who might be confined in these nunneries? There might be lunatics confined there; and he therefore hoped at no distant period the subject might engage the attention of the Government.