§ LORD REDESDALEwished to ask his noble Friend the Vice-President of the Board of Trade (Lord Colchester), whether there was any intention on the part of Her Majesty's Government to bring in any Bill for the regulation of railways. He believed that there was an almost universal opinion amongst persons in this country, with the exception of those personally interested in railways, that some further regulations should be adopted, and some further control exercised in regard to matters connected with these concerns. The accidents which had lately occurred, and which had certainly been more than usually numerous, 232 had drawn the attention of the public to this matter; and he believed that the 3afety as well as the convenience of the public really required some attention on the part of the Government, and the adoption of some regulations which might enable them to interfere a little in these matters. He knew that there was some little difficulty in moving in this matter; because, whenever any attempt was made by the Government to interfere with them, it was urged that to interfere with the railway companies? would diminish their responsibility. But he was convinced that there were many points in the management of railways on which the interference of the Government would be most useful. His reason for drawing the attention of the House to this subject, arose partly from the responsibility which the House had cast upon him in the office in which they had placed him as their Chairman of Committees. It was supposed that that functionary should exercise an almost complete control over the regulations to be enforced with regard to Private Bills. Now, unquestionably from the manner in which the House had always supported the Chairman of Committees, he had considerable power; but still no Chairman of Committees, and certainly not he, for one, could presume to lay down on matters of this kind a code of legislation which he would feel justified in imposing on all railways whatever. This could only be done by Parliament itself acting legislatively at the instance of the Government. To him it appeared that all the railway companies stood in a position which rendered such a course of legislation justifiable—because for the last thirteen years a clause had been inserted in every Railway Act subjecting the companies to the operation of any general Act which might be introduced with respect to railways. No railway company, therefore, would have any right to complain, whatever the interference of the Government might be. He thought that advantage should be taken of the present Session for the introduction of a measure of the kind to which he had referred; for if it was allowed to pass without this being done, their power of obtaining a control over railway companies would be materially diminished. It was also most important that such a measure should be introduced on account of the character of many of the Bills likely to be introduced—Bills to effect important amalgamations. Now, it was impossible for any person to look to a great extension of 233 amalgamations without some apprehensions as to the consequences that might arise from them to the public interests. To a certain extent he entertained no objection to the amalgamation of companies, but he thought that proposals for that end should he taken up only with the greatest caution. Measures should be taken to protect the public against the consequences which might naturally be expected to follow from some of these amalgamations, if they should he carried out, for they would certainly partake in a considerable degree of the nature of monopolies. It was only, therefore, in proceeding by a general measure, assuming the necessary powers of control, that they could expect to give the public confidence in the administration of railway business. He had to the last opposed the abolition of the Railway Commissions; and he hoped to see them re-established with more extended powers, and properly supported by the Government of the day, which they never had been before. There were many points as to which he thought it highly expedient that some power of control should be taken. For instance, there should be some authority able to regulate the proceedings of the railway companies in putting on and in taking off trains from different lines, for at present the conduct of the railway companies in regulating such matters was in many cases opposed to the convenience of the public. You found that when there were two railway companies conflicting with each other, you came by one to a point from which you must travel by another, and that the train by which you wished to proceed on your journey had started just ten minutes before your arrival by the train of the other company, and that you must wait three or four hours until you could start by another train. It could not be productive of any mischief to vest power in a general Board to correct such abuses on receiving a representation from the inhabitants of a district, or from another railway company; and it would he just to enforce such arrangements, for the lines were given to the companies by Parliament on the faith of their giving that accommodation to the public. There was another point on which he thought it necessary that Government should interfere with the management of the railway companies. There should be some stringent regulation to exact from them punctuality in their times of departure and arrival. Almost every accident on the railways arose from 234 want of punctuality. A reform in railway management, by which punctuality should be enforced, would be more beneficial to individuals, and would even affect a greater number of persons, than the reform recently introduced by his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack into the Court of Chancery. In a new Parliament, like the present, it would be difficult to obtain that attention in the other House to the many Railway Bills which would come before them in the course of the present Session which their importance required, on account of the number of election petitions, which would necessarily occupy the time of many of those who were best qualified to act as Chairmen of Committees; and the consideration of these matters must consequently not only be more hurried than usual, but also in many cases be left to the decision of new and less experienced Members. It was on that account that he had drawn the attention of the Government to the subject thus early. If the Government were not prepared to introduce a general measure for the better regulation of railways, he trusted that, at least, they would frame beforehand some clauses, directed to the purposes he had specified, and to other matters of importance to the safety and convenience of the public, to be inserted in all Railway Bills in the present Session; but he believed they would find that proceeding by a general Act would be the least trouble to them, and more effective.
§ LORD COLCHESTERwas ready to acknowledge that this was a matter which the noble Lord had done well in bringing before Parliament, for it was one of great importance to the public safety and the public convenience. He was afraid the answer he had to give to the questions put might not be quite satisfactory to his noble Friend. The attention of the department to which he had the honour to belong was constantly devoted to this subject, but no new measure was at present in preparation. With respect to the number of new Railway Bills that might be expected to be introduced in the present Session, their information was at present necessarily very imperfect. They had only the official notices inserted in the Gazette by which to judge of the probable number, and the entire number would not be known until the 30th of November, the last day for depositing the notices, and even then it must be remembered that many intended undertakings probably 235 would not be carried out, and perhaps the Bills not even introduced into Parliament. At present the number of Bills for which notices had been given was forty-two, fifteen of which were for the incorporation of new companies, thirteen for the construction of new works, eight for continuations, five for amalgamations, and one for extension of powers. The whole subject, in the opinion of Government, was of such difficulty and importance, as only to be adequately dealt with by a Select Committee, and, therefore, Government had come to the determination of moving the appointment of a Select Committee to consider it. At present he was not able to give a more decided answer to the questions, than that the subject was engaging the earnest attention of Government.
§ LORD BEAUMONTobserved, that in his opinion, the necessity of an Act respecting the management of railways did not depend upon the number of Bills which in the course of the present Session would be introduced into the Legislature. What they wanted was this, a code of laws—a general code of laws—respecting the management of railways, which should apply equally to all railways, both those that might obtain Bills in future, and those that had already obtained them, and had consequently now no occasion to come before the Legislature. A Bill might be framed so as to prevent the vexatious proceedings which now so often take place between conflicting railway interests, and which always result in inconvenience to the passengers, and loss to one or other of the parties. What they wanted was such a general Bill as would lay down a rule to enable persons who had grounds of complaint to right themselves. Of course such a Bill could alone properly emanate from Government; and he (Lord Beaumont) thought, therefore, he might ask his noble Friend if, in the Office of the Board of Trade, this question had been considered, whether in consequence of the numerous accidents which had recently occurred on railways, and the enormous loss incurred by the necessity of applying to Parliament for amalgamations and other desirable objects by separate and special Bills, the Government intended to introduce any measure of a general nature which would put an end to this state of things, by an enactment in the nature of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, which would be of general application?
§ The EARL of DERBYthought, however 236 desirable theoretically it might be that there should be one code of regulations which should guide and govern all railway companies, past, present, and to come, and that Parliament should, by an ex post facto regulation, lay down rules for the guidance of a railway company, thus interfering with its internal management, not only would it be impossible for Government to carry any measure through Parliament, but, if it were possible, it would be an extraordinary interference with the internal regulations of railway companies, which were most of them much better judges of what was conducive to their own and the public interest, and much more capable of attending to it than any Government Board could be. He could not, therefore, hold out to the noble Lord who had just sat down any expectation that it was the intention of Government to introduce any measures of railway regulations which might tend, according to the sanguine views which the noble Lord took, to render impossible the occurrence of inconveniences and accidents to the public, or which would amount to any serious interference with the powers and privileges conferred by Parliament on the existing companies. He would not, however, hesitate to say that, as experience showed from day to day the necessity of legislation for particular purposes, and as opportunities arose for dealing with particular questions, he thought it exceedingly desirable, and indeed necessary, that they should avail themselves of the fresh references to Parliament that would become requisite on the part of the companies, for the purpose of introducing such modifications of the existing system as experience had shown to be necessary or desirable for the public interest. One question raised by his noble Friend in which Parliament might probably interfere with advantage, was in the connection of different trains with different railways communicating with each other. In such cases there might usefully be given some power of arbitration or arrangement under a Government Board to prevent the inconvenience now inflicted upon the public, for the purpose of making them travel the greatest length possible upon the respective lines of the different companies. But any measure of that kind would require much care, because it might involve an interference with the details of management; and their Lordships must recollect that in every case where Parliament insisted on particular times being observed, Parliament must become responsible also for the in- 237 convenience and danger which might be introduced by running corresponding trains on other lines, and which, if great attention were not paid, might be of a very serious description. There was another subject to which he wished to call the attention of the House, and with respect to which he considered that a great mistake had been made by neglecting it at an early period of the existence of the railway system—he meant the making provision for the conveyance both of mails and troops by the different companies. He believed that at present Government was absolutely and entirely in the power of a railway company as to the terms—not on which the mails would be conveyed, indeed—but on which other conditions most essential to the public service, in the conveyance of troops and similar objects, would be performed. Therefore, when railway companies came to Parliament for new and amended Bills to extend the powers they already possessed, he thought the opportunity should be taken of introducing such fresh regulations for the furtherance of the public service by facilitating the conveyance either of mails or troops, as might be found expedient. His noble Friend the Postmaster General (the Earl of Hardwicke) had very carefully considered this subject, and prepared clauses which would be submitted to Parliament for its approval, and which, if adopted, would provide greatly increased facilities for the transmission of mails and troops by railway companies. He differed, however, from the noble Lord as to the extent to which Parliament ought to legislate for the regulation of existing railways.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, he had heard with great satisfaction the remarks of the noble Earl; because he was fully aware of the great inconvenience to which the Post Office and other departments were put by the present system. The sum paid by the public for the conveyance of mails was now of an enormous amount, and exceeded, when he left office, 400.000l. a year. He was sorry the noble Earl had not held out greater hopes that the subject would be considered by Government. He did not approve of ex post facto legislation. It would be very unfair to resort to any measures of that kind, except when railway companies came to ask for some boon. He thought, however, there would be no hardship whatever in taking measures by which redress would be afforded in case of the breach of public engagements. It was very desirable that consideration should be given to the sub- 238 ject, with the view of remedying the present imperfect states of railway legislation.
§ The EARL of HARROWBYdenied that in any contract the Government were at the mercy of the railway companies. It ought to be remembered that the public required from the latter a vast amount of duty. Look at the vast bulk of newspapers and books which the railways conveyed, and for which the means of transit were never required under the old system. This should be remembered when noble Lords were told of the large amount of payment to railways by the Post Office. All experience showed that railway amalgamation, under wise and proper regulations, was the best system. Parliament might order trains to be run at particular hours, but they could never regulate the action of hostile parties. Companies with rival interests always began with extravagant competition, and then combination eventually followed, to cover the expense of all the losses caused by competition. It would have been much better if Parliament had carried out properly the scheme of Lord Dalhousie. If they had not left the construction of lines to the mad speculation of private parties, they would have had a much more economical and efficient service. The best remedy was, to keep in view the original views of Lord Dalhousie, and to assign somewhat of a monopoly to each railway company over their respective districts, under proper regulations for the protection of the public. Monopolies on railways were, and must be. Let Parliament avow that they were, and deal with them as such, and all would be easy. But if they treated railways as undertakings to which the ordinary law of supply and demand was applicable, causes of complaint against railway management would always exist.
§ EARL GRANVILLEdoubted whether so many towns would be now connected by railway, or whether so many trains would be run, if the Government had originally assumed greater responsibility, or had been intrusted with the management of railway matters. He thought it desirable that a Parliamentary Committee should be appointed. In many instances the railway companies would be grateful to have some of the questions between them settled by the superior authority of Parliament.
§ LORD BATEMANsaid, that a passenger in Yorkshire ought to have the power of booking himself through to London without being compelled to change his carriage when he came upon the line of any other 239 company. On some matters of this kind legislative interference would be desirable.
The DUKE of MONTROSEthought cooperation between railway companies hardly to be expected, unless a controlling power were vested in Government. To show the necessity of an improved system, they had only to look to the frequency of accidents at present. He remembered on one occasion travelling to Scotland by express train. An accident occurred; but as no lives were lost, he supposed for that reason the circumstance was not noticed in the newspapers. The cause was, that trains of several different railways passed along one line; and while such a state of things existed, it was fraught with the greatest danger. He understood that an inspector from the Board of Trade went down to examine the line, and that he recommended the erection of a bridge; but the recommendation was disregarded by the railway, and the Board had no power to enforce it.
§ LORD COLCHESTER,alluding to the case referred to by the noble Duke, said that it was but just to the engineer of the railway, Mr. Stephenson, to state that when the matter was represented to him, he undertook to make a bridge sufficiently wide to prevent accidents.