STATE OF IRELAND. (Hansard, 17 February 1852)

The EARL of RODEN
moved, in pursuance of his notice, to put a question to the noble Marquess opposite respecting certain Returns connected with the Disturbances in the North of Ireland, and said that he would avail himself of that opportunity to call the attention of their Lordships to that important subject. He begged their Lordships to grant him their pardon for the anxiety which he felt on this question, which involved the safety of all who were near and dear to him in that part of the kingdom. He believed that the very security of their lives depended on the course which Her Majesty's Government intended to pursue. Since he had last had the honour of addressing their Lordships, he had waited for accounts from that part of Ireland in which he lived, in the hope that he should have to congratulate them on the prospect of better hopes for the future; but he was sorry to say no such prospect was reserved either for him or for their Lordships. Since the failure which had taken place at the special commission in Monaghan, there had been a great increase of spirit in the rebel conspiracy, and many threats had issued from it against some of the most useful and respectable proprietors in the north of Ireland. He had read an account, which he had received from an authority he was not at liberty to disclose, that two of the most useful men in his own immediate neighbourhood had been denounced by the Ribband conspiracy, and bad received two notices, and it was quite certain that after two warnings they would suffer death if steps were not taken to protect them in the meanwhile, or if the arm of Providence were not stretched out in their behalf. He had communicated to those two gentlemen the account which he had received, and he hoped that they would take the necessary means for the preservation of their lives. The statements which he had made to their Lordships when he addressed them the other night might appear to some of them too highly coloured; but since that time there had been a meeting at Armagh of 634 the magistrates of the counties of Louth, Down, Monaghan, and Armagh, under the respective Lords Lieutenant of those counties, with the Lord Lieutenant of the county of Armagh at their head. At that meeting those magistrates agreed to a series of resolutions, respecting the state of their counties, much stronger than anything he had said. They stated that— A succession of murders, attempts to murder, assaults, burning of houses, acts of intimidation, &c., had taken place within the district, all marked with the same agrarian character, and evidently proceeding from the same secret conspiracy; that this secret association possessed the sympathy of many, and had overawed the whole of the population to such an extent that the evidence of the most atrocious murders, perpetrated in the open day, could hardly be obtained; that jurors, from whatever class impanelled, were too often either disaffected or intimidated; that the audacity of the conspirators had fearfully increased with their impunity; and that the conspiracy was rapidly extending into the neighbouring districts; and that the sympathy, and yet more the terror, of the population, was proved by facts which would come under their notice daily, and were well known to the authorities—such, for instance, as an unwillingness to render the common offices of humanity to the victim of assassination or outrage, and the levy of forced contributions for the purpose of defending agrarian criminals. Such was the testimony which these magistrates gave to the existence of the outrages now prevailing in those districts. He informed their Lordships that they were much mistaken if they conceived that this Riband conspiracy was applied only to agrarian objects, and was not applied to political and religious objects. It was guided by a secret hand and head, and appeared first in one part and then in another part of Ireland. Such was the conspiracy, and after all that their Lordships had done at different times with the view of suppressing it, they had never been able to come to the root of it. What means ought to be taken to enforce or strengthen the law, it was not for him to say; but it was the duty of Government not merely to inquire, but also to execute, for so long as this conspiracy had sway, there never would be either peace or security in Ireland. Even now the High Sheriff of the county of Louth was obliged, for his protection, to have two policemen resident at his house; and only the other day, when he paid him (the Earl of Roden) a visit, he came attended by two policemen as the guardians of his life. Was this no hardship or punishment to individuals? and had not they who suffered it a right to look up to Government for protection against such an 635 intolerable state of intimidation? His Lordship then referred to the murderous attacks which had been made upon Mr. Chambre and Mr. Eastwood, neither of whom had anything to do with land. The fault which the former had committed in the eyes of these conspirators was his having committed the priest Spooner to prison on a charge of haying written a threatening letter; and the fault of the latter was, that he had deprived of his licence a publican at whose house one of their illegal meetings had been held on the Sabbath. He had already said that this Riband conspiracy had increased of late. It was not confined now to the counties of Louth, Armagh, and Monaghan; it was also rife in the county of Down. He would not trouble their Lordships by going into the details of the threatening letters which had been sent in that county; but he was anxious to draw their attention to a circumstance which had happened last Tuesday, and which he thought would naturally excite their indignation. The facts to which he referred were those which had already appeared in the public journals. [The noble Earl then read from an Irish journal an account of a trial which had occurred at one of the petty sessions in Ireland, where two policemen were fined 10s. for stopping at 10 o'clock at night a man on the highway, who, instead of having a blunderbuss in his possession, as they suspected, had only a bottle of whisky.] If these policemen erred, they erred in the right direction, and did not deserve any punishment. That decision would damp the ardour of the police, and would throw the apple of discord among the magistracy. He hoped that the Government would inquire into that case, and would take measures to enforce and strengthen the law until it was adequate to meet the outrages now so prevalent in Ireland. The assizes in Ireland would shortly take place, and he should make a point to attend them. If any cases should occur requiring the attention of their Lordships, he should bring them forward in the Motion on the general state of Ireland, of which he had already given notice. He then moved for an Address to Her Majesty, for— A Return of the Number of Murders, Cases of shooting at, waylaying, and other Outrages, in the Counties of Louth, Monaghan, Armagh, and Down, from the 1st of January, 1849, to the 17th of February 1852, in which Inquests or Informations were returned to the Clerks of the Crown and Peace; specifying the Crime, when committed, the Persons charged, and Proceedings against 636 them at the Suit of the Crown, and the Result of the same: And also, Return of the number of Threatening Letters received by Persons in the Counties of Louth, Monaghan, Armagh, and Down, between the 1st January 1849 and the 17th February 1852, which have been sent to the Government or lodged with the Police; specifying their Date and the Persons to whom they have been addressed.

§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE
was understood to say that he had no objection to grant the return moved for by the noble Earl, who certainly had not overrated the importance of the subject; but that, with regard to any further measures of repression, the Government thought it advisable to await the termination of the forthcoming assizes in Ireland.

The EARL of WICKLOW
wished to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to a change in the law of the country which had been from time to time brought before the Legislature, but had never been carried into effect. He alluded to a measure for enabling the venue to be changed in criminal cases. It was a measure which had been recommended by the highest authorities, and he was sure that, without it, convictions could not be obtained from the juries.

The EARL of GLENGALL
regretted the indisposition on the part of the Government to take efficient steps to meet the terrible emergency in which the respectable portion of the Irish people found themselves. No man had had greater experience of special commissions than he, and he traced their failure to the difficulty of procuring the necessary evidence. No doubt pains were taken to get juries of the highest respectability; but without evidence to convict, all efficient action was paralysed. Owing to the insufficiency of the evidence in this particular case coming within his own knowledge, it appeared that a man tried and found not guilty by a jury by a majority of nine to three, was again acquitted a day or two after by another jury by a majority of seven to five. The juries were composed of the most respectable persons, and no blame could be attributed to them. The question was, whether the Government were justified in sending that commission to Monaghan without sufficient evidence? Every one was satisfied that the evidence was not sufficient; and nothing could be more unfortunate than failing in a special commission. The Ribbandmen were generally known to the police, who could find them whenever they pleased at their places of resort, but could 637 never find them with papers—they were too clever for them. The authorities knew them well, but had no power to arrest them. He (the Earl of Glengall) considered that changing the venue, introducing the Scotch jury system, or courts-martial, were of doubtful utility, for without evidence the trials were futile. He considered that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act was almost justifiable to meet such an atrocious system of Thuggee. By its suspension in 1848 the Government hsd saved the lives of tens of thousands, and of devastations and burnings throughout half Ireland. The suspension of the Act is a question for consideration to meet such an emergency. It was not astonishing that Ribbandmen should have increased enormously. Not only was it a very old conspiracy, having existed ever since 1798, and being founded upon the "United Irishmen" Association, but there had been an immense stimulus and impulse applied lately to the system by the agitation of tenant-right. Mr. O'Connell invented fixity of tenure to plunder the landlords; tenant-right had the same objects. The people construed it to mean that the tenant should occupy that land as an owner which he held now as tenant; it was the "stand-fast" system of the old American revolution, which was so successful. Nor was this all. The effect of the operations of the Encumbered Estates Commissioners had been to encourage the tenants in this agitation; for, with an appearance of justice, they might say that if confiscation was the order of the day, they ought to have a share, and that it was quite as fair they should have tenant-right as that persons should be enabled to purchase the land at half its value. It was certain, at all events, that a wide-spread combination existed amongst the tenants, and those who aided them, to denounce the landlords systematically as the cause of all the evils in Ireland. Nor was this confined to the ordinary agitation of the country; for even the adherents of a Government which had descended to pay journalists for the support of "law and order" had not been ashamed to hold up the owners of the soil to execration and assassination in the very same journals.

§ LORD LYNDHURST
said, he had intended to ask that a copy of the report of the proceedings before the late special commission in the chief cases should be laid before their Lordships; but as he understood the persons acquitted were to be again indicted, and as observations on the 638 evidence might prejudice their cases, he should not at present take that course, and should wait until the result of the second trial was known.

The EARL of RODEN
was understood to ask if the Government would assent to certain returns relative to the number of recent murders in Ireland?

§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE
, on the part of the Government, assented to the Motion, at least in a modified form. The noble Marquess then said, with reference to the late special commission, that he should wish the whole of the proceedings before the commission to be laid upon the table.

§ LORD LYNDHURST
remarked that he did not think this would be sufficient to enable their Lordships to form any judgment as to the propriety of issuing the commission, for which purpose the applications made, or the evidence sent up to the Government, should be produced.

LORD BROUGHAM
said, with reference to the remarks made by the noble Earl (the Earl of Wicklow), as to the question of venue, that subject was worthy of consideration; and it should be borne in mind that in Scotland such a system as that suggested (of changing the venue in criminal cases as a matter of course where there was the least doubt of a fair trial) had existed from time immemorial—that is to say, a criminal trial could take place either in the county in which the offence was committed, or in any other. He could not, however, at all approve of another suggestion which had been made for abolishing the system of unanimity in juries. He thought such a change would be extremely dangerous.

§ LORD ABINGER
believed the proceedings in the case of the policeman to which the noble Earl had referred, had originated under the Crime and Outrage Act, which authorised a search for weapons, so that the matter was the more unexplainable.