LORD STANLEYI wish to call the 180 attention of the Lord Privy Seal to the answer which he gave last night to a question put to him by the noble Earl opposite (Earl Fitzwilliam). My Lords, the answer which was given to that question was as clear, as distinct, and as explicit, and, I am quite sure, as satisfactory to this House and to the country at large, as an answer possibly could be. I allude, of course, to the inquiry which had been made of the noble Earl with reference to a statement that the noble Earl (the Earl of Minto) had been in some way privy, in the first instance, to an intention on the part of the See of Rome to take those steps which have caused so much and so just and general indignation throughout the country. I understand the noble Earl to say distinctly that he was not in any degree cognisant of or consulted as to the intentions of the See of Rome on that question; that although he had many repeated confidential communications both with the Pope himself and the Cardinal Secretary of State, the subject was never broached between them; no communication was made to him whatever, no intimation was given that such intention was entertained, and that, in point of fact, he was perfectly at a loss to understand from whence the rumours had originated, to which he gave the most emphatic contradiction, that he was in the slightest degree privy to the intention of the See of Rome. I understand the noble Earl to have said, not that he was ignorant of the quarter whence the rumour proceeded, but that he was at a loss to imagine what possible circumstance on his part could have given any colour to the allegation. But the noble Earl will forgive me for saying ho spoke incorrectly when he spoke of this being a report or rumour. It was not, my Lords, a report or rumour, but a statement made apparently in the most authoritative manner, by a person filling a very high situation, and claiming to possess the fullest and amplest means of information. Now, my Lords, I am quite aware that this House has nothing whatever to do with the veracity of the prelate who has been charged by the Pope with the spiritual superintendence, at all events, over the laws, morality, and religion of the Roman Catholics of this country. But, my Lords, on the one hand, while I give credit to the noble Earl, as I am bound in duty, not only to the noble Earl's own personal character, but also because he speaks with all the weight and solemnity which attaches to the declaration of a Peer of Parliament speaking in his 181 Place in Parliament, a declaration which is invariably assumed to be of the same sanctity and solemnity as a declaration made on oath, on the other hand, it is a most extraordinary fact, that a declaration is made by Cardinal Wiseman in his own name, and in the most formal manner, in direct opposition to the statement made by the noble Earl. I repeat, that I give the amplest credence to the denial of the noble Earl. But, my Lords, it is not only that the Cardinal has made a different statement (if that were all, I should hardly have called your Lordships' attention to the matter), but it is on account of the mode in which, and the quarter to which that statement was made, that I bring the subject under your Lordships' notice. My Lords, I hold in my hand An Appeal, as it is called, to the Reason and Good Feeling of the English People on the Subject of the Catholic Hierarchy, by Cardinal Wiseman; and in that appeal he states, that he has already alluded to Lord Minto having been shown the brief for the hierarchy, printed about two years ago. "The circumstance," says the Cardinal, "may have escaped his Lordship's memory, or he may not at the time have attended to it, in consequence of bearing more important matter in his mind; but as to the fact that his attention was called to it, and that he made no reply, I have no doubt." Now, my Lords, this statement is made by the Cardinal at the close of the year 1850. It appears, from a passage in his Appeal, that in speaking of having already alluded to Lord Minto's having seen the brief, he refers to a letter which he addressed early in the month of November to the noble Lord at the head of the Government, and a near connexion of the noble Earl himself. Cardinal Wiseman states, that on the 3rd of November he wrote as follows to the noble Lord at the head of the Government:—"I take the liberty of stating that the measure now promulgated was not only prepared, but printed, three years ago, and a copy of it was shown to Lord Minto by the Pope on the occasion of an audience given to his Lordship by His Holiness." This statement was made, deeply affecting the character of Her Majesty's Government, and deeply affecting the honour of an individual Member of that Government. A statement was made to the Prime Minister of the Crown, that, not as a rumour, not as an allegation, but as a fact within the knowledge of the writer, not only that the measure had been print- 182 ed, but also that a copy had been shown to the noble Earl opposite. My Lords, I wish, therefore, to know from Her Majesty's Government, whether, in consequence of that quasi official statement made by the Cardinal, any step was taken, on the part of the noble Lord at the head of the Government, to ascertain from his colleague the correctness of the statement so made by the Cardinal—whether that communication having been made, as I presume it was, steps were taken by the noble Lord at the head of the Government, upon the authority of the noble Earl, to disabuse the Cardinal as to the fact, in contradiction of the statement made? My Lords, if no such statement were made, I cannot but say, I think the Government must have been very remiss in permitting such a statement to go forth, without a most formal contradiction, not in the shape of a letter addressed to a private individual, but by a most formal contradiction on the part of the Prime Minister. If any such contradiction were made to the Cardinal, in reply to his letter to the noble Lord at the head of the Government, I must say, that the fact of such contradiction having been suppressed, in this Appeal, where the charge is repeated, materially adds to the disingenuousness of the course of proceedings, by the party who holds, at this moment, a very high position, and, of course, attracts a great share of public attention. The noble Earl will, therefore, forgive me for asking whether, on receipt of this letter, any communication was made to him by Lord John Russell? Whether any explicit denial was given to the statement of the Cardinal? And whether, on the part of the Government who were concerned in the matter, that explicit denial was communicated to the Cardinal himself?
The EARL of MINTOwas understood to say, that Lord J. Russell had no occasion to apply to him for information with regard to the statement made by Cardinal Wiseman, because, as soon as be (the Earl of Minto) saw that statement, he communicated to the noble Lord that no such information as that referred to had ever been given to him; and he believed that in a letter, written by Lord John Russell, and afterwards published in the newspapers, it was stated distinctly that be (Lord Minto) was neither a party to nor cognisant of, the measure. If he had been aware of the noble Lord's intention to put any question to him upon the subject of the steps taken by Lord J. Russell, he would have been able to afford 183 information to the House which it was not now in his power to give, as he was quite ignorant of the course pursued by his noble Friend. He might state, however, that before he went to Italy a report had certainly reached him, in common, he had no doubt, with most of their Lordships, that some intention existed at that time on the part of the Pope of conferring upon Dr. Wiseman an archiepiscopal dignity with the style of Westminster. He believed that report at the time, but during his residence in Rome he had reason to suppose that even that intention had been abandoned. With regard to any design whatever of organising a Roman Catholic hierarchy in this country, not one word ever reached him from which he could even suspect that anything of the sort was contemplated. He was very unwilling to say anything that could be supposed to convey the reproach of wilful misrepresentation in any quarter, but he was perfectly at a loss to understand what had given rise to the statement to which the noble Lord opposite had referred. He was quite persuaded, assuming the report to have proceeded from the Pope—which was not he thought a correct assumption—that the Pope must have imagined something to have taken place which certainly did not take place. He had heard it said that on the occasion of some interview which he (the Earl of Minto) had with the Pope, the Pope pointed to a roll of papers upon the table, observing "These concern you," and that he (the Earl of Minto) appeared to take no notice, and made no answer. He had no recollection of any such occurrence; but it was very possible that such a thing might have occurred, and he might have let the matter pass without notice, and not have ascertained to what the papers referred. But, as he had said, he had no recollection whatever of any such occurrence, or of anything which could be understood as having acquainted him with the intentions of the Pope.
LORD STANLEYsaid, the first part of the statement of the noble Lord was entirely satisfactory. He hoped it would induce the people out of doors to think that it was not really the case that the appointment of Cardinal Wiseman and the other Roman Catholic bishops had been communicated by the Pope to the noble Earl. But still it seemed somewhat strange that when the noble Earl was, on the part of the Government, carrying on a confidential communication with the Pope, and giving him good advice, no doubt, with regard to the management of the affairs of 184 Italy, that the noble Earl should be so wrapt up with this subject as not to give attention to the Pope, when he said, pointing to the papers before him, "Here is a matter that touches your country." He (Lord Stanley) could scarcely think it creditable to the diplomatic ability and industry of the noble Earl to suppose that, when the Pope said, "Here is a matter which touches your country," the noble Earl did not inquire in what respect it touched his country, and that at a time when the noble Earl was interfering in the affairs of Italy. It appeared now that such a communication might have taken place, and that the noble Earl had altogether forgotten it. He (Lord Stanley) hoped, however, for the sake of the noble Earl's diplomatic reputation, nothing of the kind had occurred.
The EARL of MINTOsaid, this was not an explanation given by him; he had merely referred to a statement made by somebody else, as to something which was supposed to have occurred at an interview between the Pope and himself. He could only say, that he had no knowledge or recollection whatever of anything of the sort. But he would say further, that if the noble Lord was engaged in a discussion on some subject of great interest, and a person were to point to papers and say, "Those concern you," it was not very likely the noble Lord would interrupt the discussion, by asking, "Pray, what have you got that concerns me?" He presumed that, as he (Earl Minto) was in Italy as the quasi representative of this country, if there had been an intention to inform him of any contemplated measures, he would not have been told, "Those papers concern you," but that the projected measures would have been distinctly communicated to him. With regard to what took place between Dr. Wiseman and Lord John Russell, if the noble Lord wished it, he would inquire, but he did not believe that Lord John had made any reply to the letter of Dr. Wiseman.
§ House adjourned to Monday next.