§ LORD MONTEAGLEpresented a petition from Landowners, Clergy, and inhabi- 124 tants of Killarney and the county of Kerry, praying for the adoption of measures securing by local guarantee the payment of interest to parties willing to undertake the completion of the works for the construction of railways (Minutes of Proceedings, 53). The petition involved a most important principle, and he wished to call particular attention to it. Some years ago, when this subject first came before their Lordships—that of affording public assistance to railway companies in Ireland — although it was late in the Session, the measure appeared so likely to improve the condition of the country that their Lordships readily sanctioned the Bill. The line of railway from Dublin to Cork had now been completed. Mr. Drummond, however, in his report, recommended its being carried further west to Mallow, and from thence to Killarney. This railway had been partly constructed, but the resources were inadequate for its completion, in consequence of which the grand juries of the counties of Cork and Kerry had assented to the principle of assisting by the county rates the completion of this railway; and the question was whether, under the circumstances of the case, Parliament would be disposed to sanction that proposition. The railway would give employment to from three to four thousand ablebodied men, and be of the greatest advantage to the district. A Bill was now before the other House of Parliament on the subject, and he hoped when it came up to their Lordships they would give it their assent.
§ LORD REDESDALEsaid, the Bill was first introduced in 1845 or 1846, and the capital of the company then was 375,000l.; that estimate had now been reduced to 210,000l. This, therefore, was clear, that it was proposed, in the first instance, that the capital should be raised on 150,000 shares of 25l. each, and it was now proposed to reduce the amount to 141. per share, so that the original proprietors would get rid of 11l. per share. The calls which had been made amounted to 6l. per share, and if all were paid up the sum raised would be 90,000l., and the rule was that a railway company should not be allowed to borrow until half the capital was paid up. The power of borrowing, which they now wanted to take, went to the extent of 125,000l., which would be 5,000l. more than the estimated cost of the whole line. There was also an extension of this line from Killarney to Valentia, for which 125 no such privilege was asked; and, unless something was stated much stronger than anything he had yet heard as reason for dispensing with the Orders of their Lordships' House, he thought they ought not to sanction such a principle as that sought to be obtained by the Bill. The Galway case was not in point. In that case great distress existed, and that was the only ground upon which the public money was advanced, whilst in the present instance it appeared to him that private parties' came forward and sought to raise money for their own private advantage upon the security of others.
§ EARL GRANVILLEdeprecated the practice of discussing a general principle upon the presentation of a petition, and referring to a measure not before the House. There was some excuse, however, for this matter being then brought before their Lordships, and he found himself in the somewhat incongruous position of agreeing, to a certain extent, with both of the noble Lords who had addressed the House. The Railway Commissioners, in pursuance of their duty of reporting to both Houses of Parliament, had never given an opinion on the merits of Bills; but it was their duty to point out any unusual provisions in a Bill, or any clauses which might clash with the general law on the subject. Now, the provisions in this Bill were of an unusual character, and were not in accordance with the general law of railways; at the same time it was perfectly true that a precedent existed in the Galway case, whore the Government had advanced 500,000l., but the cases were by no means the same. He, however, thought that a great public benefit would arise from the proposed extension of this railway. He believed that it was matter of notoriety that great distress existed in that part of Ireland through which the line would pass, and the railway itself would not only be a public advantage, but it would give great employment to the poor; and, therefore, he thought the rules of the House ought not to be too closely applied with a view to prevent such an object from being carried out. It was necessary that great care should be taken in preparing such a measure; and it was impossible that this Bill could pass both Houses in its present shape; at the same time it would be the duty of the Government to consider whether a fair and unobjectionable mode might not be adopted by which the public advantages contemplated by the Bill in question might 126 be obtained without infringing on the rules of their Lordships' House.
§ THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, there was such great distress in that county that he was sorry any technical rules of the House should stand in the way of its relief.
§ EARL GREYsaid, there two ways in which railways were advantageous: in the first place, from profits directly made from passengers and goods; and, in the second place, indirectly by the additional value given to land and particular parts of a country, by opening up communication. In the United States of America, and especially in the remoter parts of that country, railways which would be utterly ruinous speculations if they were merely to look at the receipt from passengers and goods, became very advantageous when they took into account the increased value given to the land through which they passed. He thought it would be very wrong for their Lordships hastily to assume that something of the same kind might not take place in Ireland. He thought it possible that there were parts of Ireland which suffered so much from the want of communication with other parts of the empire, from want of a good market for their produce, that it might be worth the while of owners of property in those particular parts of the country to consent to become subject to some liability in order to encourage the formation of railroads in those districts, even if these parties had no share in the returns on account of passengers and goods. He quite agreed with the noble Lord opposite, that it was quite right to call the attention of the House to a Bill of so unusual a character, and he quite agreed with his noble Friend near him that any measure founded on this principle ought to be looked at with the utmost care. He thought that, especially when they were legislating for Ireland, they ought to be careful there was not some job intended.
§ LORD BEAUMONTsaid, there was something peculiar in this case. The petitioners who asked for this power were not merely the company promoting the Bill. On the contrary, it was the party who was to give the guarantee. It was the ratepayers themselves who petitioned to be allowed to give a guarantee on the raising of this sum of money. It seemed a hardship to refuse such a request.
LORD STANLEYsaid, it seemed to be generally admitted that this was a principle of an exceptional character, and one which 127 in ordinary cases ought not to be allowed. It was a proposition which the noble Lord behind him was not only justified in bringing, but it was his bounden duty to bring it, before the House. On the other hand, there was a general concurrence of opinion that these petitioners, not being the promoters of the railway, but who wore merely desirous of giving a guarantee, would by giving it, add to the value of a large tract of land. It was proved also that there was a great amount of distress in the district through which the railway was to pass, which might be in a great measure alleviated by the introduction of a work of this character. And he thought a case had been made out for giving, under proper provisions, the guarantee of the county rates for the purposes of this railway. There was one peculiarity which applied to an Irish railway, but did not apply to an English one, which was, that these same parties who came forward to offer this guarantee, had, under ordinary circumstances, the power to lay out the very same funds for the making of roads. The question then was whether they would not allow the county to make a railway for the purpose of opening up the county, out of precisely the same funds with which they could make a road for the same purpose. It was possible it might not cost the county a single shilling.
§ LORD REDESDALEobserved that it must cost them 25,000l. at once.
LORD STANLEYsaid, if he understood it, the county gave the guarantee to enable them to raise the money; but be apprehended the guarantee was not to go further than to make good the amount of interest in case the receipts from goods and passengers fell short. On these considerations he thought, though it was a case to be watched, it was an exceptional case, and one in which they ought not to adhere strictly to the technical considerations generally applicable to railways.
§ THE EARL of POWISsaid, as there was a general concurrence in the county that the guarantee should be given, it was a case in which they might step out of the ordinary course, taking due precautions.
THE EARL of WINCHILSEAsaid, the House was greatly indebted to the noble Lord for bringing this matter before it. This was not a work which would do good to the whole county, but only part of the county. The House should well consider before they sanctioned such a principle.
§ LORD REDESDALEexplained that the 128 company proposed literally to do nothing of themselves.
§ LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, he felt justified in having specially called their Lordships' attention to this subject. He had stated that though the persons who subscribed the petition were of great importance, and represented a great extent of property, they were not the representatives of the whole county; but then he stated that two meetings had been held of the grand jury and of the ratepayers, and also that there had been held special meetings of the ratepayers in the district, and that all parties were unanimous in favour of it.
§ Petition to lie on the table.