HL Deb 23 March 1849 vol 103 cc1178-88

LORD MONTEAGLE moved for an Estimate of the sum which the Government calculate will be raised under a rate of 2½ per cent on rateable property in Ireland. He did not intend at the present to raise the Question of the expediency or inexpediency of a rate in aid, those being points unconnected with the merits to which he now wished to draw public attention. He was willing to assume that the measure was right; but he anticipated that it would not be found to work as expected by its framers. On the assumption that the measure of the Government would pass, the question was, whether the remedy proposed to be adopted would be adequate to the evil they were called on to meet? It would, in his opinion, be most dangerous to propose that as a remedy which, in point of fact, experience would prove to be no remedy at all. In the west of Ireland there were eight unions which might serve as a sample of the rest of the destitute districts in that country. They were in the province of Connaught, and the greatest distress prevailed among the people. The population was 563,000, and there had been spent upon the relief of the poor in the course of the past year above 220,000l., while only 46,000l. had been locally raised as a poor-rate; so that there was 164,000l. required for the support of the poor in those eight unions beyond what could be raised by rate. These unions, it should be borne in mind, were administered not by local government, but by the paid officers of the Poor Law Commissioners, removable at their pleasure, and who possessed an unrestrained power of taxation, for the purpose of relieving the poor; and, consequently, it might be fairly assumed that the largest amount of rate had been raised that could be levied from the district. In fact, so stringently was the poor-rate levied, that the single cow of a gentleman, who had once been a considerable landed proprietor, was seized and sold, though it formed the sole support of his family; and when redeemed by a friend and restored to its former owner as an act of charity, it was seized a second time, and sold for rates. The very goats of the peasantry shared the same fate. These facts he did not mention as matters of grievance, but as illustrations of his proposition, that the resources of the district had been exhausted. This year the distress was greater than it was in the last—the amount of destitution had increased very considerably, and a much larger number would consequently have to be relieved in the coming period. The question then arose, seeing how the power of payment was exhausted, whether the proposed rate in aid of 2½ per cent would be sufficient for the purpose of relieving the destitution of Ireland? Was it proposed that the rate was to be levied on the whole rental of Ireland, according to the last valuation? It would be most unjust to impose it, seeing that, as a general rule, that valuation had fallen greatly in certain districts since it had been made. In the district of Kilrush, for instance, the rateable property was now fully one-third lower than when that valuation was made. It was then 60,000l.; it was now only 40,000l. So in Scariff, Clifden, and Ennis. An equal poundage rate would only be equal in name. The rate in aid could not be collected in the most distressed unions. They could not at once be payers and receivers. Reference had been made to the earnestness of the opposition brought to bear upon the rate as contrasted with the small amount of the tax proposed to be levied; but it should be recollected that the whole people of England had resisted the proposition of a tax for a lesser sum, last year, even when it was intended to be applied to the general purposes of the State. Besides which a tax of 2½ per cent on the entire rateable property of a country was not a small thing; and those who had opposed the imposition of a lesser tax on the richer part of the empire should not sneer at the opposition excited by the proposal of a greater tax in Ireland. The object he had in view by his Motion was to ascertain whether a rate in aid would be effectual for the purposes of relieving distress in Ireland. On looking further into the question, various other circumstances had to be considered. A great amount of debt had already been incurred by various unions in that country, which would have to be repaid before relief could be effectually afforded to the poor. The debt in September, 1848, exceeded 200,000l. Connaught owed above 94,800l., having but a balance of 168l. in the treasurer's hands. It was in evidence that the contractors of several of these unions had refused to supply them any further until their demands were liquidated—it was shown that heavy legal expenses had been already incurred in some places for the recovery of these debts—and that in some unions everything had been seized and sold to pay the debts which had been contracted by the guardians: in one instance, a union was now actually hiring the furniture of their own workhouse, which had been sold up under a sheriff's warrant. Even if the rate in aid was calculated to relieve the current distress of Ireland, these debts would remain unpaid; therefore, he apprehended that it would be still found wholly insufficient for the purpose intended. Confining himself, as he had done, to the financial part of the question, he should simply call for an estimate which he hoped would not be refused on the ground of any supposed difficulty in making it up, or from any other motive. Many estimates much more difficult to make up had been laid before the House. The noble Lord then moved for an estimate of the sum which it was calculated will be raised under the rate in aid proposed to be levied on rateable property in Ireland.

LORD WHARNCLIFFE

observed, that it would be premature on this occasion to enter into a discussion of the subject. He had risen merely to express his concurrence in the desire of his noble Friend for information on the matter, and to suggest that the returns might be advantageously made fuller in one respect, by a return being added of the number of unions in which a rate above 5s. in the pound had been struck last year, in order that they might have some notion of the number of unions to which the rate in aid would be applicable.

The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE

said, that the Government had no disposition to withhold any information upon the subject which they had it in their power to give. He might observe, however, that the course adopted by the noble Lord in moving for estimates of probable amounts was a very unusual one, and that it would be almost impossible to furnish returns of such a nature which could, by possibility, have any claim to accuracy. The Motion was for an estimate of the sums which would be raised by a rate in aid. Now, a return of the sum which would be raised immediately, were the rate in aid actually in force, might, and probably would, present a very different result from that which would be realised at that future period when only the proposed Bill could come into operation. The most important element of it would be the sufficiency of the rate. If it were not sufficient to meet the exigencies of the case, the means adopted would no doubt be entirely to be condemned. But his noble Friend must, from his own experience, be well aware that the Government, when proposing a general tax, was not in the habit of referring to local boards or particular officers of revenue in order to prepare a statement to be laid before Parliament. In the present case it would be impossible to prepare such an estimate as his noble Friend demanded. His noble Friend had spoken of the difficulties attendant upon it, but it was impossible to say how those difficulties might be increased or altered within a short time. It was impossible to say how many districts now insolvent might shortly be able to pay, or how far distress might extend to places not suffering under very heavy pressure at present. He did not see, in fact, how any estimate could be made which would enable their Lordships to form an opinion upon the scheme. As to the amount of the destitution in Ireland, he differed from his noble Friend, and he thought that it would be as impossible to say how many persons would require relief in the coming summer, as to say how much money would be raised by the rate. A general opinion might of course be formed by the Government as to the amount that would be raised, and it would be upon that general opinion that they should act. As to the returns spoken of by his noble Friend, there was no objection to their being laid upon the table. There might be some difficulty in obtaining some of them, but there would be no attempt made to withhold them. In conclusion, he should repeat, that the impossibility of having a correct estimate was no reason why the general question should not be introduced.

EARL FITZWILLIAM

said, he had always thought that Parliament were legislating in a strange manner so far as Ireland was concerned, and he must say that the speech of his noble Friend (the Marquess of Clanricarde) had not a little confirmed him in that belief. It undoubtedly might be difficult to form a very correct estimate of what the 2½ per cent might produce in Ireland; but his noble Friend had attempted to account for the difficulty by stating that the condition and situation of various parts of that country were varying from day to day. What a disclosure from one of the Members of Her Majesty's Ministers! If the position and circumstances of that country were ever varying, how unstable must everything be upon which Government depended, and how fallacious must be their hopes that the rating scheme would be capable of affording relief to the distressed subjects of Her Majesty in Ireland! The object of the Motion was to ascertain, not with mathematical correctness, because mathematical correctness could not be obtained upon such a subject, but with general accuracy, the amount likely to be realised by the imposition of the tax. It seemed, however, that Her Majesty's Government entertained no very clear conception of what it was likely to produce. In addition to the Amendment proposed by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Wharncliffe) there was a still more important point which might be suggested as extremely desirable—not what the local rate would produce, but what were likely to be the results of it upon those who would have to be fed, and what were the still further distresses to which the people would most probably be subjected. This was a matter worthy of the consideration of the House and of the Government, because there was no man who would not agree in the truth of this proposition, that it was the duty of Parliament to take care that the number of Her Majesty's Irish subjects were not diminished by famine, disease, or death. He believed that in framing a law for the maintenance of the poor of Ireland, the Legislature might have adopted a better course than was now proposed. They might have thrown the whole of Ireland into one great union, and have called upon the whole mass of the property of Ireland to maintain the poor of that country. But taking the course that the Legislature had—and he thought it but right that they should follow it up to its consequences—when they cast upon par- ticular portions of the country—upon poor-law unions and electoral divisions, the duty of exclusively supporting the poor within those districts, they should remember that since the year 1816, when the Irish and English Exchequers were consolidated, Ireland had ceased to be a distinct financial community, and had become a portion of the imperial community. When then, in devising measures for the support of the poor, they stepped out of the smaller communities—the electoral divisions—to seek assistance, the first community they met with was the imperial community, of which Ireland formed a part, and it was to that imperial community, and to that alone, they ought to apply, instead of merely to Ireland itself; and he trusted that Parliament would not make the English people cast upon the weaker portion the duty which clearly belonged to the whole body of the empire at large. Let the House mark the proportions which existed between the financial powers of England and Ireland. Not many days ago a gentleman of great authority, eloquence, and research, in the other House of Parliament (Mr. Disraeli), in making certain calculations in support of a proposition he then submitted in that place, stated, and not perhaps incorrectly, that the income of England amounted to 250,000,000l. per annum. He (Earl Fitzwilliam) believed he was not very far out in his calculation in saying that the financial power of Ireland would not amount to one-tenth part of that of England. What, then, ought the Legislature to do? In order to preserve the lives of the unfortunate people of the sister country, what were they doing? Were they laying a tax upon the whole empire? No: they were charging a portion of it. And they were not charging the whole of the property and income of Ireland, but they were confining themselves to those who were already heavily taxed, and whose duty it was to maintain the poor in their several communities. In other words, they were calling upon a small fraction of a fraction of an empire to perform a duty, the execution of which ought to be cast upon the empire at large. He thought that in further burdening the ratepayers of Ireland, instead of taxing the income and wealth of the country, they were doing what was neither just nor generous; and because it was ungenerous it was unwise; for true wisdom and generosity would always be found intimately linked together. He believed that if it had been fully and fairly stated seven weeks ago, when Parliament first met, that not 50,000l. but 500,000l. would be required to meet deficiencies of the distressed unions in Ireland, the British House of Commons would have had as little hesitation in granting the larger sum, as they had in passing the paltry amount then proposed. He emphatically warned those who boasted that they were desirous of doing justice to Ireland, not to be parties to the overtaxation of the ratepayers of Ulster, Leinster, and portions of Munster, for the sake of relieving the distress in Connaught, lest they might create in those provinces a feeling hostile to the Government, and cause a system of passive resistance to be raised to the collection of the rate.

The BISHOP of CASHEL

said, that he could state from his own experience how rapidly destitution was increasing in Ireland during the last two years. Many families whom he knew, who were in comfortable circumstances in the year 1847, were now sunk or sinking into absolute poverty. And he regretted to be obliged to say that that distress was one of the practical effects of the poor-law, under the circumstances of the destruction of food in the country. Instead of alleviating the distress and decreasing the poverty in Ireland, the effect of the law had been to increase both, and mainly in consequence of the mode in which it was levied. The first two classes immediately above the paupers were those who were in the first instance obliged to pay the rates, and the consequence of the pressure was, that these were now falling fast into absolute pauperism themselves. The ratepayers of Ireland were very different indeed in condition from the ratepayers of England, and when the poor-rate collector came upon them for the entire rate, even although they had the power of subsequently deducting a portion from their landlords, the first effect was often utterly ruinous. He himself knew instances of people who were obliged to pawn their clothes in order to pay the poor-rate for the support of those who were actually much farther removed from actual destitution than they were themselves. He, therefore, implored Her Majesty's Government, since the money must be had to support the poor where no more rates could be obtained, not to call upon those to supply it who were least able to pay. The noble Marquess had said that what would be an estimate now might not be true at a short time hence. He regretted to say that he agreed with the noble Marquess in opinion. He thought it was perfectly true. But if the estimate which might be grounded upon the present condition of the country would show a result unfavourable to the imposition of the tax, he assured their Lordships that the estimates of three months hence would be much more unfavourable. As he had always been in favour of a poor-law for Ireland, it was in sorrow he made that statement. But he felt compelled to say that he could not have believed, low as was the character of the Irish people, void as they were of independence, that they could have been so much further lowered as they had been within the last two years. The present system was increasing the poverty of the country, and aggravating the evil which it was intended to cure; and if the proposed rate were to be levied upon the present ratepayers, it would be a hardship to those who had to pay, whilst it would do no good to those who received it.

The EARL of WICKLOW

was very much disappointed at the reply given by the noble Marquess (Marquess of Clanricarde); for he should like to know when any Chancellor of the Exchequer had ever proposed to Parliament to levy a tax without giving something like an estimate of what it was expected to produce. Now, all that his noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) had asked for was something of the kind. And the evil which arose from promulgating a measure without making some such statement, was aggravated by the unprecedented step of appointing a Committee of Inquiry into the operation of the poor-law, and then proposing a scheme without waiting for the report of the Committee. But proceeding without information, the whole tendency would be to deceive the public, the Parliament, and the country. He could conceive nothing more objectionable in principle, nor more evil in its effects, than such a mode of proceeding. He begged their Lordships to consider the question—first, as it related to the unions themselves; and next, as it would fall upon Ireland at large. For there the Government stopped short. Had they gone a step further, and provided, that in case the aid which was expected from Ireland were found insufficient, further aid should be had from the united empire, there would then be no danger from the evil which was anticipated, that the aid from Ireland might fail. But, having left the country and the Parliament in utter ignorance of what might be the consequence if the aid should be insufficient, there was reason for fearing, and for asking what was to take place when Parliament would not be sitting. He confessed he could not help entertaining a suspicion, from their ignorance of the amount that might be expected, that there were some further measures kept in view by the Government. He feared that this was only introducing the small end of the wedge, with the intention of pushing it further, to the extent, in fact, that might be found necessary; and he was persuaded that this impression was entertained by many of those who would be contributors to the proposed tax. Leaving out of view the principle, he thought it was necessary that they should know from Her Majesty's Government what was to be the effect of the failure of the measure—he meant, if the sum of money raised by it should prove not sufficiently large to meet the exigencies of the case. He thought it was absolutely necessary they should be informed upon that point; and he trusted that the Government would add a provision, that in case it should prove insufficient, a further rate in aid should be raised from the united kingdom. That would remove the objections raised by his noble Friend. But if that were not done, they would be legislating in utter ignorance of the amount to be raised, and whether it was at all likely to meet the object proposed. He was sorry the noble Marquess had not granted at once the proposition of his noble Friend. It would be perfectly easy to do so. It was quite impossible that the Government could have introduced the measure without having formed some opinion upon its probable results, and his noble Friend did not expect any very correct estimate.

The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE

said, there was not the least objection to the making of an estimate, "so far as it was practicable;" and if his noble Friend would add these words to his Motion there would be no objection to it, because that would remove the possibility of the Government being held bound to the estimate; and he did not hesitate to say, he believed that, sooner or later, every sixpence that was required would be raised. There were places in which those who would be liable to the rate would not be called upon to pay it, because some of them would be recipients. But as soon as they recovered themselves, and would be liable to pay, it would be collected. But the Government would not be bound by the reports of collectors. And as to the objection made by the noble Lord, the Government could receive no information for their guidance in the proposition from the Committees now sitting. It was in the power of the House to form an opinion upon that proposition as well without their report as with them. The Committees might report upon the distress, and the causes of it, and the means that would be required to relieve it; but the Government and the House were able to form their own opinions as to the most likely mode by which the means required were likely to be raised. Before concluding, he should beg leave to dissent from being supposed to admit, in the slightest degree, the supposition or apprehension of the noble Earl (the Earl of Wicklow), that the proposition was the insertion of the small end of the wedge. For himself, and for all his Colleagues, he disclaimed all such intentions. Their plan was merely, as he had stated on a former occasion, a specific for a temporary burden. It stood by itself. It was very objectionable, undoubtedly, in principle; but one which, under the pressure of extraordinary circumstances, they had thought it necessary to adopt. As to the other questions put by noble Lords relating to the mode in which the money would be laid out, it was impossible to say how it would be expended. They could not tell what the exigencies of the country might require, or how much might be wanted for the purpose of aiding emigration, or otherwise tending to relieve the distresses of the people. The noble Marquess concluded by again saying that there would be no objection to the Motion if amended by the addition of the words proposed.

LORD MONTEAGLE

rose to reply. He had no doubt of the sincerity of his noble Friend (the Marquess of Clanricarde) in his declaration, that the proposed rate should not be increased; but he must pardon him if he separated the integrity of his noble Friend from the inevitable consequences of the measure. When the unfortunate labour rate was introduced into that House, which cost the country five millions of money without producing any commensurate amount of good, he objected to the measure as leading to the establishment of outdoor relief. His noble Friend, then, with the same sincerity as now, disclaimed such a supposition; he stated that he objected to outdoor relief as strongly as he (Lord Monteagle) did; and that he did not believe such a measure would be entertained. His noble Friend was then, as he was now, and ever would be, sincere, straightforward, and candid; but yet his (Lord Monteagle's) prediction had been verified. Therefore, without for an instant questioning his noble Friend's sincerity, he yet agreed with his noble Friend behind him (the Earl of Limerick), that this measure would lead inevitably both to an extension of its duration, and to an increase in its amount. It was always dangerous to prophesy; but he, in the year 1849, had no hesitation to predict that if this sixpenny rate was once levied, it would neither be confined to sixpence, nor would its duration be confined to two years. Why an estimate of the amount of the rate should not be given he did not understand. There was a monthly estimate of the expenditure of each poor-law union afforded, with the funds they had to meet it, and there could be no difficulty in furnishing an estimate of what the proposed rate would amount to. He had no objection to add the words to his Motion which had been suggested.

Motion, as amended, agreed to.

House adjourned to Monday.