§ Brought from the Commons; and read 1a.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEgave notice that at the sitting of the House on 346 Monday, he should propose the suspension of the Standing Orders of the House (Nos. 26 and 155), with the view of facilitating the progress of these two Bills through all their stages.
LORD STANLEYsaid, if he rightly understood the intentions of the noble Marquess, the course which he proposed to adopt had reference only to the two measures for suspending the Navigation Laws and the Laws relating to the Importation of Corn. He understood, also, that both measures were intended in their objects to be temporary, and were to be applied strictly to meet the present exigencies; and that it was not intended, therefore, to extend the operation of either of them beyond the first of September next. [The Marquess of LANSDOWNE: Hear, hear.] In that case, he thought he might say that there would be no opposition from any quarter—that no impediment would be offered to the noble Marquess to prevent him taking every step for facilitating the passing of those temporary measures. At the same time, he could not help availing himself of that opportunity to express his regret at the determination of Her Majesty's Government—if such really were their determination—upon the present occasion, and, simultaneously with those measures, to press as a permanent and not as a temporary measure the alteration of the duties affecting sugar, for the purpose of its introduction into breweries and distilleries. He confessed he should have been very glad if this measure had been introduced, as from the Queen's Speech he understood it would have been introduced, as a temporary measure; for it would then, he believed, have been passed with the entire unanimity of their Lordships, who could not have been unwilling to have adopted such a step to meet the exigencies of the present moment. To such a temporary measure there could have been little objection, at a period when there appeared to be a large stock of sugar on hand, whilst the price of barley was extraordinarily high. But when it was proposed to introduce this measure as a permanent and not as a temporary one, the Government could not expect that it would pass through the House with the same haste—with the same absence of discussion, or even with the same unanimity—as would mark those other two measures for the suspension of the corn and navigation laws; and he was sorry, as the three measures had been mentioned together in the Queen's Speech, that the same course 347 had not been taken with all—and that all had not been temporary measures. He regretted this more particularly with regard to the alterations made last Session in the sugar duties—duties which would be in a constant state of diminution up to 1851, when they would be brought into perfect equality with home-grown sugars. They would have to look, therefore, in reference to the importation of sugar and the consumption of malt, to future prices, and those prices affected by the duties. There were several details connected with the Bill, which would require a good deal of consideration, and upon which it was necessary to have a good deal of information. He did not know what course the House of Commons intended to pursue; but he now threw it out for the consideration of the noble Marquess and the Government, in the event of their determining to adhere to the permanency of the measure, whether there would be any objection merely for the purpose of further inquiry, to refer the Bill to a Select Committee; not for the purpose of delay, which, at this period of the Session was manifestly out of the question, but for the purpose of examining and sifting by the examination of vivâ voce evidence the probable effect of the measure which was to be adopted. He hoped the noble Marquess would not think he was taking an improper opportunity of adverting to this subject. He thought it was of great importance that this measure should pass, not as a measure pressed forward by the Government, on the one hand, and opposed by the Members of that House on the other hand, as one calculated to alarm the parties interested, and seriously to affect the agricultural interests of the country, which he thought were fully entitled to some consideration. If it could be proved that the operation of the Bill was not injurious, let the case go before the public; and let the public, who had been much alarmed by the course of policy lately taken, have the opportunity of having the facts, the evidence, and the calculations in a more detailed form than they could possibly see them on a mere reference to casual debates in the House of Commons. He thought it most desirable such a course should be pursued; and he had taken the liberty of throwing out these suggestions to the noble Marquess and Her Majesty's Government, rather with a view of inducing them fully to consider the question, than from any desire of creating a vexatious opposition, or of throwing any impediment 348 in the immediate passing of the measure. As he was on his legs, he might ask the noble Marquess what course he intended to pursue on Monday next, in reference to this measure, having no doubt a permanent and extensive operation. He understood the noble Marquess that he was to make a statement, and move for certain returns. If those papers were necessary for the understanding of the subject, there would be an obvious inconvenience in adjourning the debate, because they would adjourn the reception of papers which it was necessary to have in order to come to a fair conclusion, He had heard it rumoured—and it was in order to ascertain whether that rumour was correct—that he asked whether it was the noble Lord's intention, after making the statement, to postpone the further discussion on the Motion, and give an opportunity, at a later period, of resuming the discussion, before they were entitled to discuss it in a more formal manner on bringing up the Bills, because his noble Friend had admitted the other night that that would be a most inconvenient and inadequate opportunity for discussing points on which they might be able to throw out suggestions which Government might be desirous to adopt, but which could not be incorporated in the Bill after it came from the House of Commons? He, therefore, asked whether, after having made the statement on Monday next, the noble Lord proposed to give time to those who were deeply interested in this subject to express their opinion upon it?
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, he would answer the questions in the order in which the noble Lord had presented them.
LORD BROUGHAMobserved, that the Motion that the Bills be read a first time had not been disposed of.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that it had, and the question now before the House was the notice of Motion which he had given for Monday next, that the Standing Orders be suspended. The noble Lord (Lord Stanley) had most correctly stated what was proposed with regard to the two Bills which were of a temporary nature which had been sent up from the other House. It was proposed, with respect to those Bills, to carry them through with all possible despatch, by suspending the Standing Orders, with a view to give them immediate operation. Certainly, no such course was intended with respect to the other Bill, that permitting the use of sugar in brew- 349 eries and distilleries, which the noble Lord had truly stated was intended to be a permanent Bill. It had been matter of some doubt whether that should pass as a temporary Bill, to be adopted afterwards as a permanent Bill, and upon consideration it had been thought necessary rather at once to make it a permanent Bill, than ensure any reconsideration of the subject in the course of the present Session. There could be no doubt that this Bill was one of considerable detail, which could not be easily disposed of, and which no one could wish to propose to the House to pass through all its stages in the course of one night. Whenever that Bill did pass, it would be open to the House to give the fullest consideration to it. He was unwilling to pledge himself before the Bill came up as to the particular mode of dealing with it, whether to refer it to a Committee or not. Whether or no the details could be better considered in Committee, it would be for the House to determine.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEI have stated on a former occasion that I should move for the production of certain papers with reference to the subject of Irish distress. Those papers will necessarily be of a very voluminous character, consisting, as they will, of the correspondence which has taken place between Her Majesty's Government and the various functionaries in Ireland relative to the proceedings adopted with regard to the public works and other matters. Those papers will put your Lordships in possession of every circumstance attending the alarming, numerous, and still increasing difficulties with which the Government has had to contend, in consequence of the unexampled scarcity of food in Ireland. I shall hope within a few days to be able to lay those papers upon the Table of the House; and I do not think it would be advisable to make any further statement as to the course which Her Majesty's Government intend to pursue, until some of the Bills which have been proposed by Her Majesty's Government shall be brought up from the other House. If noble Lords think it right to raise any discussion upon the subject before the introduction of those Bills, it will of course be competent for them to do so. I think it highly probable that in a very short time one or two of those Bills, to which it is not likely any 350 opposition will be made, will come up to this House, with reference to the advance of considerable sums of public money towards the relief of the distress in Ireland; and an opportunity will then be afforded upon the first stage of any of those Bills of discussing fully any matters connected with the state of that unhappy country.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, a measure involving a permanent alteration in the whole colonial and agricultural policy of the country, was as serious a matter as suspending the Habeas Corpus Act. More so indeed; and they might just as well talk of suspending that Act in one day, as of passing this other Bill in the same period. The idea was perfectly preposterous, and they therefore wanted no information on that matter. He very much doubted, indeed, whether they should agree so speedily to the Bills which had been sent up from the House of Commons for the suspension of the corn and navigation laws. He could not, until he saw in what state the Bill appeared, say what should be done with the Bill for the admission of sugar into distilleries. Of course that Bill would require much consideration, and his present impression was strongly in favour of a temporary as compared with a permanent measure. If it were a temporary measure, there would then be no necessity for a Committee; but if a permanent one, there certainly should be a Committee of Inquiry. There was another question which he wished to put relative to another Bill which was shortly to be brought up from the House of Commons. There could be no doubt the poor law was shaken to its foundation—that was quite clear. Clamour, violence, and unscrupulous agitation, had had its effect. Pressure from without had operated to the great joy of those who had been the authors of the clamour, partly for the gratification of personal spleen, and partly for the gratification of the most senseless theories, which clothed themselves in the name and garb of humanity, but which were the most injurious to the people of this country that could be entertained; for the poor law had always been intended for the benefit of the poor, and not of the proprietors: that he should ever maintain. Their Lordships, also, though at a time of great party violence, had been almost unanimous on that point — [The Duke of WELLINGTON: Hear, hear!]—and it had obtained no more strenuous supporter than the noble Duke at the Table (the Duke of Welling- 351 ton). And in the House of Commons, after all the violence that had been exerted, and the threats, amounting to threats of personal violence even, had been used, there were only eighteen found to back the out-door opponents of that Bill. He should hope that the Bill would be introduced in a manner to insure for it the most calm and mature deliberation, and that no one part—not an inch—of that corner-stone of the important fabric, viz., the central superintendence, should be interfered with without the greatest circumspection and the most mature deliberation. For this reason, he should have preferred that the Bill had been introduced in that House in preference to the other House of Parliament.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, it was not at all inconsistent with the introduction of the Bill into the other House first, that it should still receive at the hands of their Lordships the fullest and most ample consideration; and he quite agreed with the noble and learned Lord that no subject of more importance existed, and none which more required their Lordships' attention. He should be sorry, therefore, that it should be introduced in any form which would prevent their Lordships giving to it the fullest consideration, or which would preclude the possibility of admitting any suggestions for its improvement. He could not, however, allow the statement of the noble and learned Lord to pass unnoticed. So far from the proposed Bill being intended in any degree to impair the efficacy of the poor law, it was only designed to give additional efficacy to its working. The idea of impairing or withdrawing the foundation on which that Bill had been formed, was far from being the intention of the Government. The Bill for the admission of sugar into distilleries would come up in such a state as would give their Lordships ample time to consider it. The Government had made a great distinction between that Bill and the other Bills for the suspension of the corn and navigation laws.
LORD BROUGHAMsaw no reason whatever why the Poor Law Bill, when ready, should not be at first introduced to that House. It would be far more dispassionately considered in that House, in the first instance, than in the other House; and he hoped the Government would adopt a course so likely to prevent clamour and opposition.
§ EARL FITZWILLIAMdid not know in what form the Poor Law Bill might be 352 brought in; but he agreed with his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham), that it would be better to introduce it first in that House. He had heard with great satisfaction from his noble Friend (the Marquess of Lansdowne) that it was not intended to interfere materially with the mode in which the poor law was administered. It was absolutely necessary that there should be central superintendence; but, at the same time, he did not think there should be constant central interference, He quite agreed with his noble and learned Friend, it was most desirable that that superintendence should be exercised in a quarter entirely free from the political changes of the day. A Minister of this kind ought ought to be in Parliament for the purpose of being questioned, and to give information; and not merely a constant superintendent over the management and administration of the law. He trusted, therefore, that no threats of pressure out of doors, no desire to conciliate support in the other House, would induce Her Majesty's Government to flinch from their determination that a real and practical superintendence of this law should be in the hands of persons not liable to the political changes of the day.
§ House adjourned.