FINANCIAL MEASURES—LATE AND PRESENT ADMINISTRATIONS (Hansard, 4 October 1841)

§ Viscount Melbourne
said, he did not rise to offer any objection to this bill, or to the mode proposed for carrying its provisions into effect; for it appeared to him, that as soon as it was known that the Government had come to the determination that they would not, for the present, consider the financial state of the country— that they would not enter into any inquiry into its financial difficulties—that they would not adopt any of those measures which had been proposed by the late Government, or bring forward any measures with similar objects of their own—as soon, he repeated, as those determinations of the Government became known, it was impossible but that some such measure as 1095 that now before the Mouse, should have been proposed, and should have received the sanction of Parliament; knowing that there was a deficit in the revenue, and knowing that, in the opinion of Government, there was not sufficient time to consider the question of taxation, the only course that could be adopted was, as the deficit must be made up in some way, of borrowing or funding. He did not see any particular objection to the form in which it was done. He had, however, one objection to the plan, and that to be sure was a serious one—namely, that it had failed— that the Government had not succeeded in raising the money, or in funding their Exchequer Bills. He was the last man who would say anything calculated to have any injurious effect upon public credit; and he was very unlikely to say anything that could have such an effect; but, considering the language which the Government had held with respect to the finances of the country, and the state of the country, they should have taken care not to fail. They should have commanded success; and even if they had made a worse bargain, or had worse terms than the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, (and he rather feared they were actuated by some such motives,) they should have endeavoured to carry their point. In saying this, let hint not be misunderstood as objecting to the measure before them, but he wished to call the attention of their Lordships to what might be considered the manifesto or basis of the motion by the noble President of the Board of Trade, which had led to the late change in the Government. That speech had been characterised by his noble and learned Friend near him as a very able and eloquent speech; and he admitted it to be so; but, able as it was it was insufficient to support the superstructure which had been founded upon it. He did not deny its eloquence, but there were many able and eloquent speeches which were afterwards found to be very inconvenient. One great objection made in that speech was, that the late Government had never met the difficulties of the country, or grappled with its financial embarrassments in a fair, straightforward, and manly manner. They were accused of tampering with the finances by temporary expedients. Now, let him ask any of those by whom these objections were made, what was the measure now before the House but a tempo- 1096 rary expedient, an expedient worse than a loan, nay, an expedient so objectionable that even the Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that it was so bad, that it ought not to be drawn into precedent? He did not object to it, but he thought that it was singularly inconsistent with the arguments used by noble Lords opposite on the "no confidence" amendment to the Address. It was strange that the very first step of the new Government should be as bad as any of those for which they had objected to the late Government. If Government were determined on taking the course they now pursued, they were not justified in making that motion. They had no right to call the attention of Parliament to the financial difficulties of the country, unless they were prepared to enter into the consideration of them with the view to the proposal of some remedy. Such a course was not necessary to their "no confidence" motion, for they might have carried that before or after, with or without argument, as they pleased. He repealed that they had no right to call the attention of Parliament to the financial difficulties of the country, unless they were prepared with an immediate inquiry into them. It was different with the late Government. With them the introduction of the subject was quite consistent, because they were prepared with measures to remedy the difficulties to which they had called the attention of Parliament; but it was not, he again said, fair of the new Government to bring on the subject, considering the arguments they had used against the course pursued by the late Government. On this subject he could not omit to notice what had been said for some time by men now very high in office against the measures of the late Government, and more particularly what had lately fallen from his noble Friend (the Earl of Ripon) on the same subject in a late debate in that House, who spoke of the necessity of considering the "immense financial difficulties in which the country was involved." Now, he must say that it was not fair, it was not correct, it was not proved, it was not just to the country, to say that it was involved in immense financial difficulties. He did not mean to deny that there were difficulties, but he did assert that they were not immense, and that it was a great over statement and exaggeration so to describe them. The state of the finances demanded to be considered seriously, and 1097 to be met energetically; but he repeated they were not in "immense difficulty," and considering the general state of the country, the amount of its revenue, its resources, and its strength, he must say that it was not wise or prudent to use that desponding tone in speaking of them, and that such language must have the effect of weakening those resources and of diminishing that strength. He freely admitted that there were difficulties to be met; but he begged leave utterly, distinctly, shortly, and emphatically—in words, which being short would be more easily understood, to deny that the late Government had delivered over the country, or any branch of its revenue, in a dangerous state, or its finances in immense difficulties, to its successors in office. His noble Friend (the Earl of Ripon) had said, that some decided, vigorous, and efficient scheme of Government was necessary, and then he came down with his own scheme, which had all the defects that had been attributed to those of the late Government, and this additional defect—that it added to the funded debt of the country, without making any provision for the interest, which was precisely the objection made by the noble Duke (Duke of Wellington) to the Government proposition for funding Exchequer Bills in 1838 or 1839, he did not remember which. The noble Duke had then said, that he did not object to the funding, but he did object to the not making some provision for the interest, and yet now he was a party to a measure to which the same objection would lie. He would not say, that the measure taken by the Government was wrong, but they were not justified in adopting it after the language they had held, and after the Address they had carried up to the foot of the Throne. What had they been called together for? and for what reason were they now about to separate without doing anything with reference to the great questions as to which the country looked for something to be done at the hands of the Government? If, as was said, the finances of the country were involved in immense difficulty, surely their condition ought to be an object of immediate consideration. What was it which they had to consider? There was no mystery in it—there was nothing which could prevent the subject from being well understood. They had to decide on one or other of two courses. 1098 The expenditure was found to exceed the income of the country. They must then either reduce the expenditure or raise the income. In the present state of the country he feared that they could not do the former, but that, on the contrary, an increased expenditure would be necessary — though he hoped it might not be so. But his noble Friend, (the Earl of Ripon) who seemed to fear that an increased expenditure would be necessary, proposed— what? An immediate consideration of the subject? No, but for time to consider it! For what did he require time? Was he looking for the philosopher's stone? or was he endeavouring to discover the transmutation of metals? If he was it was reasonable to ask for time, and he was ready to grant it; but, as he supposed that that was not the case, he saw no reason for deferring to a future day important matters which required immediate consideration. But why should his noble Friend defer a subject which he himself had assured their Lordships he had been considering for two years? Surely that was time enough to show at least that in the immediate consideration of it now he could not be said to be taken by surprise. The noble Duke thought that the lateness of the season of the year, and the consequent difficulty of securing a full attendance in the Houses of Parliament, would prevent the full discussion of the great, measures which would be brought under their consideration. Now, he could point out to the noble Duke a plan by which he could insure a full attendance. Let him only give notice of a motion relating to the importation of foreign corn, and he might rely upon it he would not lack a very full attendance in both Houses until that question should be disposed of. Again, let him say with respect to this bill, that he did not object to it. He was not so great a theorist in finance as others, nor was he so much afraid as others of the consequences of change; but be must say, that considering the language held by Ministers, and the important votes to which their objections had led, it was not a measure which they were entitled to propose.

§ The Earl of Ripon
was always disposed to be amused when his noble Friend (the noble Viscount) chose to be jocular, and he was not the less so when his noble Friend's jocularity was directed against himself. He did not feel that he was 1099 called upon to enter into a justification of a speech which he had made on a former evening, and which his noble Friend might have replied to at the time, but which he now chose to notice, after many days' consideration. With respect to the bill before the House, he did not know in what degree his noble Friend was opposed: or favourable to it. He did object to it, and he did not; he Hints a doubt, and hesitates dislike.

§ Viscount Melbourne
did not object to the bill.

§ The Earl of Ripon
His noble Friend; did not object to the bill; but there was one thing to which he did object, and in very strong language, too. He objected, that the measure was a failure. Now, he must deny, that it was a failure; for his right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, though he had not raised all the money which he had first intended, had raised a million more than was sufficient to cover the deficit. But then his noble Friend contended, that the Government were not justified in bringing in such a measure as this, which all must admit, was a temporary expedient, on account of the amendment which they had moved to the Address. What was it, let him ask, which had called the attention of Parliament to the subject? Was it not the notice in the Speech from the Throne? The Government were bound to bring their measures forward, having had ample time to prepare them. But if other Gentlemen moved an amendment to the Address and carried it, did it follow, that they were at once to be prepared wish a whole batch of measures in opposition to those referred to in the Speech, or was an individual to be precluded from moving an amendment unless he was prepared to strike off at once a new system of commercial and financial policy? The idea was absurd, and no man knew, that it was so, better than his noble Friend. The present Government were, therefore, not liable to the reproach cast on them by his noble Friend. If, coming into office nearly at the beginning of September, they had undertaken to propound a whole scheme of finance and a revision from beginning to end of our whole commercial system, the country would have laughed at them as fools, or rejected them as madmen. It was easy for persons not practically acquainted with such matters 1100 to fall into such a mistake; but no person knew better than did his noble Friend, that no one part of our financial system could be touched without, directly or indirectly, affecting some great commercial, or manufacturing, or trading interest, and that one such interest could not be affected without in some degree affecting all the rest. It would not do, therefore, to take an isolated view of one part of the scheme of financial and commercial policy. It would be necessary to take a full, and comprehensive, and common-sense view of the whole. His noble Friend well knew, from his experience, that the science of Government, whether legislative or; executive, was, in fact, neither more nor less than a perpetually recurring struggle with difficulties. They might be got over or evaded for a lime, but they would again recur, and Government or Parliament would be perpetually called on to provide for their recurrence, and there was no surer way of being overwhelmed by them, than to rush with breathless haste into the adoption of great and extensive schemes of Government or legislation, without mature consideration. That, in his mind, was a sufficient justification for the course pursued by the present Government, and to have proposed any other, at the present time, and under present circumstances, would have been perfect madness. When his noble Friend talked of a loan, he must have been aware, that if Parliament had adopted the plan proposed by his Government, it could not have been carried out without the aid of a loan. There would have been no other way to cover the deficiencies of the year. The whole amount of the deficiency was 2,400,000l., of which it was assumed, that 1,700,000l. would be raised by the proposed alteration in the taxes or duties on certain articles. That scheme was, to say the least of it, doubtful, and he defied his noble Friend, or any man of business, to show, that if it had been carried into operation, it would be possible between this and April, 1842, to make up the deficiency without a loan. It had not been his intention to say what he had said; indeed, the outbreak of his noble Friend had been so unexpected, that him, to use his noble i Friend's own expression, like a clap of thunder,. If the present Government had taken the course which his noble Friend ' seemed to thing they ought to have taken, they would have deceived the people, 1101 which was the very last tiling a Government should be guilty of.

§ The Duke of Wellington
said, he thanked the noble Lord for his suggestion of a scheme for procuring a large attendance in that House; but he would give the noble Lord his answer to his scheme; he never would announce to that House an intention which he did not entertain. He had no intention of bringing forward a scheme for the alteration of the Corn-laws; he had not the power of so doing; he had not sufficiently considered the subject to be able to bring forward any scheme for an alteration of the Corn-laws, and had, therefore, no intention of announcing one to the House; he, therefore, suggested to the noble Lord, that he should propose some other scheme for effecting his purpose. The noble Lord had referred to what he had said three or four nights ago, respecting the funding of: Exchequer bills, as brought forward by her Majesty's late Government at the time; being part of their annual system of finance. But the Government of this day, had to take up a system of finance, at the termination of the Session of Parliament, a Budget having been brought forward by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, showing a deficiency of 2,500,000l. But 2,500,000l. was by no means the only deficiency there was a large amount of arrears to be provided for, by some means or other. In addition to these, he understood, that when his right hon. Friend came to examine and see what was the real expenditure of the country, and what were the real demands upon the Treasury at the present moment, he found there were liabilities on account of the colonies, demands from the colonies upon England, Canada, and elsewhere, amounting to a very large sum, which had never been carried to account at all in the statement of the budget, and these had to be added to the 2,500,000l. which had been carried to account. Besides this, if he was not misinformed, there were other matters which involved expenditure, and all these things must be considered before any Government could bring forward a financial statement, and say what would be the permanent expenditure of the country. He defied any one, under the circumstances, to come forward with a financial scheme of Ways and Means. These things must be well considered before such a scheme could be brought forward, including with the Ways and 1102 Means a provision for large arrears which had been left, the arrears of this year being unknown till the accounts had been examined, and also demands for the future expenses of the country in different parts of the world, the probable amount of which was not known up to this moment. These were matters which it was not his intention to discuss; but as the noble Lord had thought proper to attack the Government as he had done, they must defend themselves.

Lord Brougham
hoped, from what had fallen from the noble Lord at the head of the Board of Trade, and the noble Duke, that they would, between the present and. next Session, apply their attention to a subject of great importance, and at an early period of the next Session come forward with a measure respecting the general state of our commercial policy.