HL Deb 04 August 1840 vol 55 cc1237-45

House in committee on the Clergy Reserves (Canada) Bill.

On Clause 2.

Lord Ellenborough

said, that the bill directed the investment annually of the funds arising from the sale of the clergy reserves. It appeared to him that the sum so arising, and so to be invested in the public securities of the colony, would bear a very large proportion to the debt of Canada, and its periodical investment as a part of that debt would have the effect of a very large sinking fund, the tendency of which must obviously be to increase the value of public securities. But eventually the time must come when those investments would cease, and it was not impossible that the interest on them might cease to be payable, the necessary consequence of which would be to leave the clergy without any provision. No prudent person would regard an investment in these funds as a secure provision for his family, and that which could not be considered a permanent provision for a family that might expire must be quite insufficient for a clergy intended to be perpetual. He should, therefore, propose an amendment to this effect—that the Crown shall have the power of assenting to any bill which might pass the Colonial Legislature for investing the proceeds of the clergy reserves as a part of the public debt irredeemable for ever at a fixed rate of interest. Ha also thought that the Government ought long since to have assisted the people of Canada in forming the important ship canal so necessary to the prosperity of that colony, by giving them the advantage of the credit of this country. It was now well known that that province only wanted those proceeds of the clergy reserves for the purpose of effecting that great object, and the present bill would materially assist in accomplishing that, providing it underwent the necessary amendments. If the bill now before them remained unchanged, the Government could do no more than make the investments in the present securities; but by the change in the measure which he proposed, the Crown could give its assent to any bill which might pass the Colonial Legislature for effecting a different species of investment. He looked upon the practice of coming to that House year by year to legislate for that colony as highly inconvenient, and therefore it was, that he at once proposed to invest the Crown with the requisite power, without rendering it necessary to come to Parliament. He was decidedly of opinion that the interest ought to be fixed, and it appeared to him that 5 per cent, would be a good rate of interest.

Viscount Melbourne

suggested that the amendment of the noble Lord would convert the measure into a money bill, and their Lordships could not adopt it without an infringement of the privileges of the other House.

Lord Ellenborough

observed, that the amendment which he proposed only amounted to the insertion of a permissive clause, and he took upon himself to say that their Lordships might do anything that they thought necessary relating to the taxation of the province, without at all interfering with the privileges of the other House.

Lord Seaton

said, there could be no doubt that the measure would be received in the colony with great joy, and on the whole he must say that the bill appeared to him much less objectionable than any that had yet been proposed. At the same time some further provision for the clergy would be necessary for the measure would make provision for only 125 clergymen of the Episcopal Protestant Church.

The Earl of Ripon

had some doubt as to the policy of the amendment. He feared that its effect would be to deprive the clergy of the power of acquiring lands in any form, however necessary for building churches or residences for themselves, all which objects were certainly contemplated in the act of 1827, which gave the power of selling these reserves.

The Archbishop of Canterbury

said, their Lordships must have heard with great satisfaction from the noble Lord (Seaton), that the effect of this bill would be to tranquillize the agitation which had so long pervaded that country, with which the noble Lord was so well acquainted, with respect to the distribution of the Canada Clergy Reserves. It was that feeling which had induced him to accede to the bill, believing that there was little or no chance of those jealousies and animosities which prevailed in Upper Canada being healed and subdued until this question of the clergy reserves should be settled. But their Lordships would have heard with the utmost concern the other part of the noble Lord's statement, with which he (the Archbishop of Canterbury) was already fully acquainted from the various corresponding accounts he had received from every person having a knowledge of that province, and taking the deepest concern in its religious welfare—namely, the state of spiritual destitution in which that province was plunged, and which almost exceeded belief. From accounts given by missionaries, who had travelled through the several parts of the province, it appeared that they found whole masses of the population, equal to ordinary parishes in England, who had not seen a minister of the gospel more than once in a year, and some had not seen one more than once for two or three years, while in other parts of the country the people had not had the benefit of any religious instruction for twelve or fourteen years together, and were left literally in a state of heathenism. Their Lordships would also regret very much, that no better provision had been made for the Church of England and the Church of Scotland, and, in fact, for the ministers of religion, of whatever denomination they might be, than the proceeds of these clergy reserves. The noble Lord had stated, that the portion for the Church of England would amount to 25,000l. at the utmost. The income of the Church already nearly equalled that sum; receiving about 7,000l. or 8,000l. from the clergy reserves and the Government, and about 16,000l. from the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts. A most wretched pittance, indeed, that was which was derived from the first-named sources, and it had been daily diminishing up to the introduction of this measure into Parliament. The state of the country itself, liable to the continual changes and uncertainties resulting from emigration, and to the inconveniences of a new condition of society, coupled with the comparative heathenism in which the population were placed, induced him earnestly to call upon their Lordships to take this subject into their most serious consideration. It was not right that this country should be neglectful of the religious welfare of her subjects residing in her colonies. Our possessions extended into every part of the world, and prosperity had marked our national history for a long series of years. We had become rich and powerful amongst the nations of the globe, but what must be the retribution that awaited a country which had received so many blessings from heaven, and which was so little anxious to diffuse that religious knowledge amongst mankind, to which it owed all its prosperity and power? He thought the amendment of the noble Baron liable to the objection stated by the noble Earl (Ripon). He should be sorry to see the money vested in colonial securities. What he should expect was, that the whole of these funds should be placed at the disposal of their owners, and that they should be laid out in the purchase of lands and secured in other ways, in property not dependent on the state. It would be an evil to suffer the church to be for ever a burden on the funds of the country, because it would be exposed to all the unpopularity arising from being maintained out of the public taxes. From this the Church would be relieved if the money was vested in the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel, which had. done so much already as a charitable institution for the support of religion in that country. It was in this way that property was vested in that society for the benefit of the Episcopal Church in the United States, and up to this moment that society remained the trustee of that property, which had been respected through all the changes and revolutions that had taken place there, and which had placed the Episcopal Church in America, in a situation of pre-eminence and stability beyond all other churches. At the same time, after all he had heard from the noble Lord, he could not object to the passing of a bill which he understood would tend to restore tranquillity to Canada.

The amendment negatived. Clause agreed to.

On Clause 3,

The Bishop of Exeter

wished to know from the noble Viscount what was to be understood from that part of the clause which provided that the proceeds of the clergy reserves should go To satisfy all such annual stipends and allowances as had been heretofore assigned and given to the clergy of the Churches of England and Scotland, or to any other religious bodies or denominations of Christians in Upper Canada, and to which the faith of the Crown is pledged. He could not suppose that her Majesty's Ministers intended to include Roman Catholics; yet the words were so large as to include them or any other religious body or faith. He should move that the word "Protestant" be inserted, so as to render the clause positive and certain in its meaning.

Lord Ellenborough

,—My Lords, I solemnly conjure you not to concede that. I implore you not to agree to that proposition.

The Bishop of Exeter

begged the noble Baron's pardon, but he had not yet done. Their Lordships would do well to remember, that they were now disposing of a fund given by an act of Parliament in order to carry into effect the pious intention of George 3rd—the permanent maintenance and support of the Protestant clergy. True, doubts had arisen upon the meaning of the phrase "Protestant clergy." But did their Lordships ever hear a doubt that those words excluded the Roman Catholic clergy? Well then, he besought them not to pass the clause in its present shape. The noble Baron had risen and solemnly conjured their Lordships not to insert the word "Protestant." He as solemnly conjured them to do so, if they had any value at all for that religion they professed—that religion which he believed they anxiously desired should have its full and free course in America as well as in England. Need he remind their Lordships of what had been solemnly declared to be the purpose of these endowments of lands? When the judges decided that the clergy both of the Churches of England and Scotland should be admitted to share in the proceeds, they certainly intimated that there might be other persons of whom they knew nothing, but even then they distinctly said, that the words were intended to exclude the clergy of the Church of Rome, and that the endowments were rather designed to aid the Protestant Church and support the Protestant faith, than the clergy of the Church of England in particular. Would their Lordships consent, then, that this property should be seized and confiscated, and give n to the Catholic clergy of Upper Canada, because it was quite clear that such would be the effect of the bill?

Viscount Melbourne

,—It does not bear that construction.

The Bishop of Exeter

begged the noble Viscount's pardon. The clause described the manner in which the property was to be apportioned, /n the first place, "to satisfy all such annual stipends and allowances as have been heretofore assigned and given to the clergy of the churches of England and Scotland, or to any other religious bodies or denominations of Christians in Upper Canada, and to which the faith of the Crown is pledged." [Viscount Melbourne: Such as have been "heretofore assigned."] He was glad to hear the noble Viscount repeat those words, because it seemed that he meant that the Roman Catholic clergy were not to be considered as included in the terms of the clause; therefore he could have no objection to admit the qualification which he (the Bishop of Exeter) wished to have inserted. Would the noble Lord say distinctly that Roman Catholics were excluded? Would he say that they were not included? [Viscount Melbourne: The clause does not bear the construction put upon it.] He thought it did; and he was confirmed in that opinion by a return from Sir George Arthur, which had been printed and circulated, and might be found in their Lordships' library. The accuracy of that return might be tested by an appeal to the noble Lord seated on the cross benches (Lord Seaton). It was a list of those payments to which "the faith of the Government was pledged," and amongst them was no less a sum than l,500l.. a year to the Roman Catholic clergy. [Viscount Melbourne: Then it ought to be continued.] The noble Viscount said it ought to be continued. He was not now contesting the point whether it ought to be continued or not. He would not be drawn into any unnecessary discussion. What he contended for was, that it ought not to be charged upon that fund which was given expressly for the support of Protestant clergymen; and he thought no Protestant House of Parliament could consent to such a diversion of this property. The clause was in truth a proposition for taking money out of the small funds expressly designed for the support of a Protestant clergy, and applying it to the maintenance of a Roman Catholic clergy. They were gravely told that more than a tenth part of what had been realized for a long time past was to go to the maintenance of a Popish clergy. He thought it scarcely possible that their Lordships could entertain such a proposition. The consideration of another circumstance might make this proposition still more intolerable to their Lordships; it was, that they were forcing this money upon the acceptance of the Catholics. He was sure that the noble Baron, when he rose and conjured their Lordships not to agree to the amendment, did so with the most laudable feelings, being influenced by an opinion that this bill was to restore tranquillity to the province of Upper Canada. But what notion would their Lordships have of the matter, when he read to them a proof that the Roman Catholics themselves did not expect that this should be done for them—nay, more, that they actually wished and asked that it should not be done? In the appendix to, the report on the affairs of British North America, by Lord Durham, p. 45, was to be found the address of Roman Catholic inhabitants of Upper Canada to the Earl of Durham, signed by the Catholic bishop and thirty of the principal residents. That report contained the following passage:— With respect to the clergy reserves, considering that we were expressly and de- signedly excluded by the act of 1791 from any participation in them, we have resolved not to embarrass the settlement of that question by making application for any portion of them. But they proceeded to recommend that these reserves "be not bestowed exclusively on the Church of England," but that they be "devoted to the religious and moral instruction of the whole people." They there disclaimed any desire to participate in these funds: would any noble Lord say it was fitting after that to entertain the proposition of the clause as it stood? He should move to insert the word "Protestant" before the words "religious bodies or denominations of Christians in Upper Canada."

Lord Ellenborough

said, that what he conjured their Lordships to do was, not to introduce any words or provisions into the bill which would deprive the Raman Catholics of Upper Canada of any portion of what they now derived from the bounty of the Crown, and to which the honour of the Crown was pledged. He felt perfectly convinced that if their Lordships ventured to touch that subject, there was not the slightest hope of tranquillity in Canada. A Catholic question would be created that instant, and the Roman Catholics, forming two-thirds of the population of Upper Canada, would be united, they and their representatives in the Assembly, against the Government of this country. Happily up to this moment there had been no religious, dissensions in Canada. That country had been spared that greatest of all curses, and he did trust that their Lordships would introduce no words into this bill which would in the slightest degree diminish the emoluments which the church of Rome now derived.

Viscount Melbourne

had the very strongest objection to the amendment proposed by the right rev. Prelate, and exactly on the same grounds as those stated by the noble Baron. The object of the clause was to continue the payment of those stipends to which the faith of the Crown had been pledged, and if the payment had been hitherto made, it ought to be continued.

The Earl of Ripon

regarded the bill as a compromise on the part of the Church, by which compromise, however, she obtained a legal title to something which did not proceed from the clergy reserves. The Crown was obliged by the bill to make good, up to a certain sum, any deficiency in the revenue arising from the clergy reserves, to which guarantee, on the part of the Crown, the Church of England, under the Act of 1791, had no positive right. He said, therefore, that upon the whole it was but a reasonable settlement that the bill should be so constructed as not to leave any ground of dissatisfaction in the colony; if, however, no compromise had been made, he should have thought that it might have been very doubtful whether the Roman Catholics would have had any right to participate in the clergy reserves.

The Bishop of Exeter

, in reply, admitted that a compromise had been made—but between whom? Between the parties who were really parties to the discussion, which the Roman Catholics were not. It was contrary to all good faith to fasten a charge for their support upon funds belonging to the Protestant clergy. If the Government had pledged their faith to find means for the support of the Roman Catholic clergy, let them go to Parliament and ask for the necessary supplies; but let them not steal from the miserable modicum which was left to maintain true religion.

Their Lordships divided on the question that the word Protestant be inserted: Contents 17; Not-Contents 27: Majority 10.

Remaining clauses agreed to, the House resumed; Report to be received.