§ The Earl of Aberdeen,on presenting a Petition from the Town Council of Caithness, praying for the Protection of the Church of Scotland, said, he would take that opportunity to call the attention of the noble Viscount opposite to a subject of much interest. He alluded to a Commission which had been issued by his Majesty's Government, the object of which was of the most extensive and important nature. It was appointed to inquire into what opportunities for public worship, for public instruction, and for pastoral superintendence, were afforded to the people of Scotland. It was, he conceived, difficult to imagine an inquiry of more serious importance. The noble Viscount was perhaps aware that the nomination to this Commission, and the composition of its members, had already excited great dissatisfaction amongst the members of the Church of Scotland. If, however, the noble Viscount was not acquainted with the fact, he could state it to him from the most unquestionable authority. He did not complain that the Commission was wholly composed of Whigs, or (as had been said on another occasion) of Whigs and something more; nor did he complain that the paid portion of the Commission, to whom the active part of the business was left, were lawyers of small repute, but what he did complain of was, that the majority of active paid 185 Commissioners attached to this Commission were known to entertain sentiments hostile to the Establishment altogether. One of these gentlemen was an avowed supporter of what was denominated the voluntary system; he had not only spoken in favour of it, but he had published a work in support of his opinion. Another of these gentlemen, acting upon the principles of honour and consistency, had declined being elected a member of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, in consequence of his having come to conclusions hostile to the connexion of Church and State. Now, he would ask, was it right, was it fair, was it decent, that the interests of the Church should be intrusted to individuals holding such opinions? The deputation of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, which had been recently in London, had reason to expect the appointment of a Commission of a very different description; and, therefore, their surprise was great indeed, when they saw, contrary to the assurances that had been given them, how the Commission was filled up. He knew that there were some respectable names on that Commission, but the majority of the Commissioners were such as he had described. The Standing Committee of the Church of Scotland lost no time in meeting when the fact came to their knowledge. They came to an unanimous Resolution, in which they declared, "that the Commission, as at present constituted, was such as to excite the apprehension of the members of the Church." That Resolution, expressive of their feelings, was officially communicated to his Majesty's Government. Now he intreated the noble Viscount opposite, if it were meant that this inquiry should be carried on to really useful purposes, if it were intended that it should be beneficial to the country (and here he would observe that his Majesty's Ministers had cut out work enough for this Commission, work, he would say, far beyond the power of the members of which it was composed), he would humbly recommend to the noble Viscount to add to the Commission a certain number of men whose hostility to the Church was less problematical than that of the majority of those who constituted the Commission as it at present stood.
§ Viscount Melbournesaid, he was not aware that a majority of the Commissioners 186 were hostile to the Church, or that their appointment had given general dissatisfaction. He could not help saying, that on this, as well as on other occasions, great stress was laid on what men's political opinions were, instead of looking to what were their moral feelings and their capabilities for performing the duties assigned to them. The greatest possible mistakes were continually occurring in consequence. He certainly had met very distinguished members of the Church of Scotland on the subject. He had had much conversation with them, and he had promised them, on that occasion, that the Commission should be impartially selected. By impartial, he meant a selection of men fitted to fulfil the purposes generally contemplated by the Commission—namely, to inquire into the whole state of religious education in Scotland. To effect that object, he thought it was necessary that there should be on that Commission representatives of all opinions. That was the course which he deemed it advisable to take. He would contend that the Commission was most respectably constituted, and would, he doubted not, perform its duties efficiently. The noble Earl asserted, that the interests of the Church of Scotland were placed in the hands of those Commissioners. Such was not the case. The Commissioners were merely called on to inquire into the present state of the Church of Scotland, and to report thereon. He could not state what the opinions of the Commissioners were on the points alluded to by the noble Earl, but he did not believe that they were hostile to the Church of Scotland. In his opinion, the Commission was prudently, wisely, and impartially constituted, with respect to the duties to be performed.
§ The Earl of Aberdeendid not object to the Commissioners appointed being of a particular political party; all he desired was, that they should entertain a friendly disposition towards the Church of Scotland. This Commission was, however, so constituted, as if its object was to inquire, whether there should be an Established Church in Scotland or not. If that were the object, it was natural that some persons should be appointed on the Commission who were opposed to an Established Church; and as the noble Viscount thought that representatives of all opinions ought to be attached to the Commission, he might have introduced some of those 187 philosophers, many of whom might be found in Scotland, who would declare, that in their view of the question there ought to be no religion at all. If, however, he understood the noble Viscount, Government wished to uphold the Church of Scotland; and yet, how did they proceed? They appointed as Commissioners persons who had avowed their hostility to that Church. One gentleman printed his sentiments, and another declined being a member of the General Assembly, because he was unfavourable to the principle of a Church Establishment. If Ministers intended to uphold a Church Establishment in that country or in this, was it proper, was it decent, to appoint persons who professed such sentiments to inquire into its situation? He was grieved when he was informed of that Commission. The names of the active paid members were totally unknown to him. They were lawyers of very small repute, because he was certain that he should have known them if they had any great standing or character at the Scotch bar. If the noble Viscount wished to give satisfaction to Scotland, he would infuse names into the Commission that would give confidence to that country. He left political opinions entirely out of the question. He merely wished such men to be appointed as, from their calm and deliberate feelings, were likely to give satisfaction. So far from the present Commission having given satisfaction, it had excited great discontent in Scotland. Last year the noble Viscount was not hostile to the claims of the Church of Scotland. The noble and learned Lord (Lord Brougham) had also, in a very able speech, pointed out the claims of the Church of Scotland to the notice of his Majesty's Ministers; and a noble Lord, whom he now saw in his place, thanked the noble Viscount in the name of the Church for the manner in which Government seemed disposed to take up the question. He hoped that the noble Viscount, after the resolution and remonstrance of the General Assembly, would make such an addition to the Commissioners as would afford satisfaction.
The Earl of Mintosaid, that the noble Earl spoke in a manner as if his object were to induce their Lordships to believe that this Commission was conceived in a spirit hostile to the Church of Scotland. If he could have believed that that was so, no power on earth could have induced him to 188 take a part in the Commission. He was attached to the Scotch Church most sincerely. He was a member of it; and he should not have consented to be made a party to the Commission, if he did not believe that the larger portion of the Commissioners was friendly to it. With regard to those whom the noble Lord had called the working Commissioners, he believed that most of them were friendly to the Church; and with regard to the rest, he believed that they were friendly to it, though they might not be friendly to the particular scheme which had given rise to the inquiry. He believed that the inquiry would be beneficial to the Church of Scotland, and that the proceedings would be fairly and impartially conducted. When he said that he would not have taken part in the Commission if he had believed that it was conceived in a spirit adverse to the Scotch Church, he ought to have added that he would not have done so if no representatives of opinions opposed to his own had been included in the Commission.
The Duke of Buccleuchsaid, that it gave him great pleasure to hear the noble Earl declare that it was his intention to maintain the Church of Scotland, and that he entertained friendly feelings towards the Establishment; for whether on good or bad grounds it was impossible to say, but the noble Earl had not that reputation. He had received several communications from persons who were much alarmed at the appointment of these Commissioners. He himself was attached to the Scotch Church, though he was not a member of it. He hoped the noble Viscount would have no objection to lay on the Table a copy of the Commission, though perhaps it would be asking too much of him to request a copy of the instructions to the Commissioners. His opinion was, that the moment the Established Church was not supported it would be destroyed, and that with that would be annihilated everything worthy of being kept, including all that was valuable in the moral and religious condition of the inhabitants of Scotland.
The Earl of Minto,in reference to what the noble Duke had said as to the reputation regarding his opinions, observed that he was well aware that great pains had been taken by certain persons to spread the belief that he was not friendly to the Church of Scotland, That belief, 189 however, was not entertained for an instant by these who knew him or had any means of knowing his opinions. With respect to the danger which the noble Duke supposed to threaten the Church of Scotland, he entertained no such fears, for he was well convinced that that Church was so thoroughly rooted in the affections of the people of Scotland as not to be shaken by any such means.
§ Petition to lie on the Table.