THE CORONATION.

HL Deb 11 August 1831 vol 5 cc1167-75

Viscount Strangford

I take the liberty of putting a question to the noble Earl, which, as it is neither relative to the French invasion of Holland, nor to the spoliations of that nation in Portugal, I hope the noble Earl will answer, as I think he can, without any inconvenience to the public service, or any danger to his Administration. I wish to know whether, among the many unseemly mutilations and curtailments that it appears his Majesty's approaching Coronation is to be subjected to, it is true that the Peers of England are to be deprived of the right—I say, my Lords, the right and duty, of humbly carrying their homage to the foot of the Throne, at the moment that his Majesty enters into a solemn compact with the people? I understand it is intended, that this part of the accustomed ceremony, instead of being performed by each individual Peer, in his own proper person, is to be undertaken by delegates, representing each rank of the Peerage, and who are not to be selected by us, but by his Majesty's Ministers. They kindly take this opportunity of presenting the nobility with a sort of godfathers, who are to promise, on our behalf, that faith, duty, and loyalty which we are not to be allowed to tender for ourselves. I hope, sincerely, that I have been misinformed on this subject, and I look to the answer of the noble Earl with some degree of impatience, as on that will depend whether certain noble friends of mine will be able to attend at the ensuing Coronation. To do that, under other circumstances, they would be most proud and happy; but they may doubt the propriety of sanctioning by their presence, an arrangement which is, perhaps, as unworthy of the dignity of the Crown as derogatory of the rights of the Peerage.

Earl Grey

I don't know if I can give any distinct answer to the question of the noble Viscount, and I have but little chance of satisfying him upon the subject, after the opinion he has declared as to what he calls the unseemly mutilations and curtailments of the ceremony of the Coronation. I believe, that the sentiments of the noble Viscount, with regard to the arrangements which his Majesty has been pleased to command respecting his Coronation, are not generally shared, and it does not rest with him to decide whether those curtailments are unseemly or unnecessary, but with the public at large, who, I am persuaded, will do any thing but concur with him in his opinions, so far as this matter is concerned. I can only assure the noble Viscount, that what we have recommended to his Majesty to do, has been called forth by the desire which his Majesty has himself expressed, and which his feelings have prompted him to express on every occasion when the opportunity was afforded—by the desire, I repeat it, of avoiding the making of any unnecessary demand on the public purse. It was with that view the arrangements for the Coronation have been undertaken, and I trust your Lordships will be of opinion that, while nothing essential to the ceremony shall be omitted, many parts may be abridged which are not consistent with the usage and spirit of the times, and by which the expenses of the Coronation would be materially increased. It is on that principle, my Lords, we are acting; and, I think, in the present situation of the country, the curtailment of forms which are neither essential nor necessary, and by which a large portion of the usual expenses of a Coronation can be saved, will meet with your approbation, as I am assured it will with that of the public at large. With regard to the particular question which the noble Viscount has put to me, relative to homage being done by delegates from the body of the Peerage, and not by the Peers individually, who are to appear, according to the noble Viscount, as the sponsors or godfathers of their respective ranks, I can only say, that I do not know if any such arrangement is decided on or not. The subject is yet under the consideration of the Privy Council. All that I know is, that I am certain his Majesty will not make that selection, and the choice of those noble Lords who will become the representatives of their illustrious ranks will not depend upon his Majesty's Government, but upon the Peers themselves. But, my Lords, on this particular point nothing has been yet determined; but your Lordships may rely, that every thing will be arranged with a view to the convenience of the public service, to a due regard to the dignity of the Peerage, and with a desire to afford full facility to the nobility of the kingdom, to tender that homage and obedience which we all agree in bearing to the sovereign of the country. It is not in my power to say any thing more decided at, present; and I have only to trouble your Lordships with a few words in addition to what I have said, for the purpose of replying to the assertion of the noble Viscount, that it was customary, on all former occasions, for every individual Peer to do homage at the Coronation If my memory serve me correctly, the noble Viscount is misinformed on that point; and, I believe, there have been no very remote instances when the senior Peer of each rank has tendered homage in the name of that rank. I believe the noble Lord will find the fact to be so, and I trust, that on this, as on former occasions, his Majesty will do nothing incon- sistent with the public service, the rights of the Peerage, and the honour and the dignity of the Crown.

The Marquis of Lansdown

I wish to inform the noble Viscount, that the ceremony of the Coronation is not referred by his Majesty to his Cabinet, but to the Privy Council, and that the Committee of he Privy Council, who have been engaged in settling the arrangements, have not made their report, and, consequently, his Majesty's pleasure has not yet been taken with regard to the particular point which the noble Lord has called your Lordships' attention to.

Viscount Strangford

I find, that the answer of the noble Earl does not afford me the information I required, and I do not perceive, that I am likely to receive any greater satisfaction from the noble Marquis near him. With regard to what he has said respecting the rights of the Privy Council, I speak as a member of the Privy Council, and I declare here, in my place, that all the Privy Council were not summoned, but that a selection from it has been made, similar to that which our Transatlantic brethren would call a caucus—particular individuals, likely to carry a particular point, having been chosen, and by them the matter will, no doubt, be most satisfactorily, at least to his Majesty's Government, arranged. Such a theory of arrangement, however, it will be a mockery and delusion to call the act of the Privy Council.

Lord Holland

I must take the liberty of telling the noble Viscount, that he misunderstands the nature of the authority by which the arrangements for the approaching ceremony are to be decided. My noble friend has told him, that they were referred to the Privy Council; but, of course, he meant not to the whole, but to that portion of the Privy Council to which his Majesty has thought proper to intrust the arrangements. They have been placed in the hands of a Committee, composed of members of the Council. The King has the power to nominate a Committee from among the members of the Privy Council, to whom separate and distinct duties may be allotted. For instance, that body which is called the Cabinet, in common parlance, is a Committee selected from the Council to carry on the business of the Government of the country; and it is their duty to advise his Majesty on all subjects which concern the public good. It is not customary to submit the arrangements for the ceremony of the Coronation to that Committee, but to another, chosen by his Majesty for that particular purpose; and his Majesty's Cabinet, though they are responsible, as far as the selection of proper persons goes, are not accountable for the acts of that Committee. The Committee, and not his Majesty's Government, are responsible to the House and to the country; and any person who maintains the contrary, totally misunderstands the nature of the responsibility of the Ministers of the Crown. With regard to the approaching ceremony, I, for one, am anxious that it should take place, as I cannot but recollect, that the country has been for more than a year under the reign of a Sovereign who has not yet entered into the usual solemn compact with his people. It is prudent in his Majesty's Government to recommend the Sovereign, notwithstanding the fatigue that he must undergo, to give his commands that the Coronation should take place, though they may be of opinion, as we all are, that the spirit of the compact exists without the ceremony, and that we are living under as free institutions and as responsible a Sovereign before, as we shall be after, the Coronation.

The Duke of Wellington

I take the liberty of explaining to my noble friend, that with regard to the summoning of a part, and not the whole, of the Privy Council, he is under a wrong impression, and, if I do not mistake, I saw his name in the proclamation in the Gazette. With regard to the manner in which the arrangements for the Coronation are usually conducted, I can only say, as far as my recollection serves me, they were made by the whole Privy Council, summoned by proclamation, and not by a portion of that body. I rise, however, to express my concurrence with the noble Viscount near me, and to declare, that I should be most sorry if that part of the ceremony to which he has alluded should be dispensed with. I should hope, as the Privy Council have not yet made a report, that they will take into consideration the feelings of the Peerage, and the wishes of the people, and take care that this part of the ceremony shall not be curtailed, as I know that many noble Lords will not attend unless they are to have the gratification of personally doing homage to his Majesty.

Lord Holland

Though the noble Duke and I appear to disagree about the law of the case, I am certain we do not differ about the fact, and the usual course is, as he says, that the whole Privy Council shall be summoned; and then, as I venture to assert, those members who attend are considered as a Committee, and are commanded by his Majesty to make the necessary arrangements. The members who attend constitute the Committee—they are accountable for all that may be done; and they relieve the Committee of the Privy Council, commonly called the Cabinet, of responsibility, so far as the arrangements are devolved on them.

The Marquis of Londonderry

I think, my Lords, after all that we have heard, that the House has every reason to be grateful to the noble Viscount for having asked this question. I can only say, for my own part, that I am; and I thank him for now giving me the opportunity of saying, that there are Peers in this country who will not depute their right to do homage to the Crown to any person, no matter who that individual may be. I feel, my Lords, the more regret at the narrow manner in which, it appears, the approaching Coronation is to be conducted, because we can all remember how lately the ceremony was performed with a magnificence and a splendor worthy of a great country and a British Sovereign. I am sorry to see, that even in this ceremony the narrow principle of economy is at work. I regret to see it, my Lords; I am sorry to find every where the endeavour to level, to modify, and to reform. No man can justify these alterations. No individual Peer, possessed of feelings of loyalty, will submit to see this ceremony, as well as his rights, abridged, and the most sacred part of them intrusted to other hands. I am glad to see, that in consequence of my noble friend's remarks, the attention of your Lordships and of the country at large will be turned to this subject, and I hope his Majesty's Ministers will see the propriety of acceding to the general wish; and I think, if they do not, a motion should be made, by which the Cabinet, or the Committee of the Privy Council, should be instructed to convey to his Majesty the wishes of the House.

Viscount Goderich

I am astonished that the noble Lord should mix up his sentiments on other political matters with the ceremony of the Coronation, and I can scarcely trust myself to give expression to my feelings on the subject. With regard to the circumstance which has given rise to his attack on the principle of his Majesty's Government—namely, to the manner in which the homage of the Peers is to be performed—I can only say, that there has not been as yet any discussion in the Privy Council respecting it. The noble Marquis said, that he was sorry to see that even in the matter of the Coronation, there was a disposition to alter and to reform, and that the approaching ceremony was to be performed in a manner altogether different from any that had preceded it. I believe, if the noble Lord inquires, he will find that the homage was paid in the manner stated by the noble Viscount so lately as the Coronation of George 3rd; and, if that be the fact, I leave the House to judge of the propriety of the attack which the noble Marquis has made upon the levelling design of his Majesty's present Administration. It would be well if the noble Lord paused before he made reflections so totally unconnected with the subject under discussion; and, however others may think of the motives which the noble Lord attributed to me and to my colleagues, I can only say, for them and for myself, that we totally repel them as unjust and unfounded.

Earl Grey

I beg to be distinctly understood, that the main object which his Majesty's Government had in view, in the advice which we gave the Crown, is to keep down expense; and, while the last Coronation cost the country 240,000l., it is now proposed that the ceremony shall not exceed a fifth of that sum.

The Lord Chancellor—

It gives me no satisfaction to have to vindicate myself for a neglect of my duty at the expense of your Lordships on both sides of the House, as you have managed to create a Debate with regard to an important subject, between the interval of my receiving notice of a motion on a different subject, and my putting it.

The Marquis of Londonderry

My Lords, I must say a few words in order to set myself right. I feel that his Majesty's Ministers have been doing every thing to destroy this blessed Constitution. That is my opinion. I repeat it to the noble Viscount opposite; and I tell him, when I am engaged in declaring my opinions to the House, I defy any noble Lord to arrest me.

The Marquis of Lansdown

If the noble Lord has any desire to bring the conduct of his Majesty's Government under consideration, he should make a motion on the subject.

The Marquis of Londonderry

I am aware of that, but I think I have a right, according to the custom of your Lordships' proceedings, to take advantage of a question being put, and to give an illustration of the general principles which the answer to that question makes manifest.

Lord Holland

I must rise to order. A great deal of irrelevant matter has been already introduced, and it is full time that this discussion should be put an end to.

The Marquis of Londonderry

Surely, even if it be moved, that the House do now adjourn, I have a right to introduce a subject which I think calls for the immediate notice of your Lordships. I see that the noble Lords at the opposite side of the House are ready to rise, one after the other, and fully to debate any point relative to the Coronation, or any other question; but, if I rise to answer them, I am met instantly with a point of order. I will put it to your Lordships, whether I should not be allowed to complain of the unfair manner in which the noble Viscount attacked me. If your Lordships are of opinion that I should not go on, I am not desirous to press my right against your wishes. I merely sought to express my respect for the Crown.

The Duke of Richmond

As a Member of this House I must say, that no one has been guilty of a greater want of respect to the Crown than the noble Marquis, inasmuch as he declared that he would not attend the Coronation, in case he was not suffered to tender his homage to the Sovereign as he pleased.

The Marquis of Londonderry

I am astonished at the noble Duke, and I defy him to charge on me a want of respect to the Crown. If the noble Duke asserts that I have shown disrespect to the throne, I repel that imputation with disdain. So far from it, I call on his Majesty's Ministers to suffer me, in common with your Lordships, to do homage to the Sovereign, according to the usual custom of the country, and I trust that the question put by the noble Viscount near me will bring them to a just consideration of that point. With respect to its being imagined that I would offer disrespect to the Crown, I can only say, that I thought my whole life— my early military habits—my association at that period with the noble Duke, would have saved me from being subjected to that charge. I thought that the noble Duke, changed as his politics are—fighting as he now does under a different banner from me—I thought, at least, that he would be the last man to think me capable of showing disrespect in any way to the Sovereign of the country.