HL Deb 11 August 1831 vol 5 cc1175-83

On the Motion that the Coal Duties' Repeal Bill be read a third time,

The Duke of Wellington

observed, that no question could well require more attentive consideration than the subject of this Bill. It required a great deal of explanation, before their Lordships ought to consent to it. Some of the clauses, particularly those repealing the additional duties on Barilla and Soda, were objectionable, and on them he wished for more specific information. The object, however, of the Bill was, to repeal the duty on coals carried coastwise; but, anxious as he was for the abolition of such a duty, he doubted whether the state of the revenue could at present allow of the reduction; for, if the financial circumstances of the country were inquired into, he was firmly persuaded it would appear, that our receipts were hardly adequate to meet our expenditure. He thought, that the local taxes on coal, such as existed at Brighton, ought to be repealed, and that every obstruction which impeded this trade elsewhere, should be taken off, before the government duty was removed. It was his opinion, that the noble Earl should have begun by putting an end to all the abuses of the coal trade in the city of London, which were now as rife as they ever had been. He was aware, indeed, that some Resolutions had been adopted by the House of Commons on this subject, and some progress had been made in a Bill to remedy these abuses, but as long as the local tax existed, there must be abuses, and there must be, in consequence of those abuses, a high price of coal. As a proof of that position, he would merely remark, that though there had been a reduction of 6s. in the duty on every chaldron of coals since March last, the price of coals, in the port of London, was quite as high now as it was before the duty was repealed. The late Ministers had intended to put a stop to the abuses in the port of London, and for that purpose, it had been their determination to put a tax on the coal, at the time of its export from the north of England. By such, an arrangement, the public would derive some benefit from the reduction of duty, whereas, at present, they derived no benefit, whilst the Treasury lost considerable revenue. The duty, also, on the export of coal, had been reduced; but that reduction in England, had been followed by the imposition of an equal duty on its importation into Holland, and he did not suppose, that any person would represent that reduction as a boon granted to the coal-owner, whatever it might be to the king of Holland. To make these remarks, was not, however, the principal reason for his troubling their Lordships on that occasion, but rather to call their attention to this fact—that these measures of the reduction of duty had been carried into effect, by virtue of the prerogative of the Crown, under the authority of two votes of the House of Commons, of which the first was passed in December, and the second in March last—the constitutional rights of their Lordships, to give their opinion on the repeal of these taxes, being entirely passed by. This act of the prerogative—or rather, he should say, this illegal act—had been aggravated by the dissolution of Parliament, for then the authority of the House of Commons was gone; and yet these duties had been repealed, though there was no authority whatever for that measure, except an order from the servants of the Crown, at the head of the Treasury; they had thus taken on themselves the authority of the whole Legislature. He did not mean to assert, that the dissolution of Parliament might not be necessary—all that he meant to ask the noble Lords was this; "Were they prepared to assert, that it was necessary, on the very day when his Majesty came down to that House, to put an end to its existence?" Could they not have allowed Parliament to have sat for a few days longer, until they had got from it a constitutional authority for what they had done? Having advised his Majesty to put an end to this tax, he thought that they might have advised his Majesty to abstain from the exercise of his prerogative for that short time, which would have enabled the two Houses of Parliament to give a legal sanction to the acts which they were about to adopt. For this reason, he had called the attention of their Lordships to the course which had been followed—first, because he believed it to be unconstitutional; secondly, because he considered it to have been aggravated by the dissolution of Parliament; and lastly, because, if it were continued under the new Constitution, it would put an end to the privileges of their Lordships, and make their House of no use. He thought it necessary to make these observations, but he did not mean to oppose the Bill.

Viscount Goderich

trusted, that he should be able to satisfy the noble Duke, that there were no grounds for the objections which he had stated to the course pursued by his Majesty's Government. He would, however, first of all advert to the points on which the noble Duke had called for further information, and especially to those clauses of the Bill which related to the repeal of the duties on soda and barilla. The remarks of the noble Duke on these clauses, related to a modification of those duties, which had been made by order of the Treasury, without any authority, as it was stated, given by the Legislature. Now first, of all he would state, that the duties on barilla had been repealed so long ago as 1829, though circumstances had prevented the Act from coming into immediate operation. The duties on soda had also been repealed in a similar manner, by an Act passed during the last year, in the Administration of the noble Duke himself. The course which the Government had pursued, with regard to the other duties, and which the noble Duke condemned as a great impropriety—he meant the remitting of the duties on a vote of the House of Commons, without the sanction of the other branches of the Legislature—had been the course invariably pursued by all preceding Governments. Whenever a duty was repealed, the alteration in collecting it took place immediately after the resolution for its repeal was carried in the House of Commons. He could assure the noble Duke, that if such a practice were not observed, great confusion would take place among all persons engaged in manufactures. He anticipated that the country would derive great relief from this repeal of the duties on coals. That was no new opinion of his, for he had avowed, years ago, that he considered these duties most unjust, from pressing most heavily on those classes of the community which were least able to endure their pressure. He knew, that in some of the southern counties of England, they led to great moral evil; for, when coals became so dear in winter, that the poor could not purchase them, the necessity of procuring fuel led them to go about in bands, and to rob the woods to obtain it. He did not agree with the noble Duke, that the best plan would have been, to have got rid of the abuses of the coal-trade in the city of London, before they proceeded to repeal the tax itself. His Majesty's Ministers had repealed the tax first, and then introduced a bill, which was at present in the other House of Parliament, for the correction of the abuses of which the noble Duke complained. As to the opinion, that reducing the export duty on coals would be an injury to our own manufacturers, and would exhaust our supply of coals, that, he must say, appeared to him very absurd. The notion which some persons had very industriously attempted to propagate, that, by the encouragement which it would give to foreign coal-owners to frequent our markets, our field of coal would be speedily exhausted, was to him perfectly ridiculous. He was informed that such fears were totally groundless; for we had a supply of coals which would last for at least 2,000 years. He was not afraid, that by the reduction of the export duties, we should be raising rivals to our own manufacturers; for their superiority was attributable to other causes than either the abundance or the comparatively low price of coals in this country; moreover, the coals exported, could not, or would not, be used in this country. They were generally small coals—what were left at the operation of screening, and which, if not taken away, would encumber the ground. As to the noble Duke's assertion, that our necessary expenditure would not admit of a remission of duties, which would cause such a defalcation of revenue, he would merely say, that there was no ground of fear on that score, if he might trust to the best calculation which could be made of the produce of the revenue for the year, as compared with the expenditure, when the reductions in the establishments on the one hand, and the remission of taxes on the other, were taken into consideration. Judging from what had occurred in the last half year, they had a right to calculate on a progressive increase of the revenue, able to meet all the demands which our reduced expenditure would make upon it. Their Lordships were not to suppose, that because they repealed a certain amount of duty, they were, therefore, to lose the full amount of revenue which that duty brought in; and, as a proof of his opinion, he would mention, that though the duties which were remitted last year produced a revenue of 2,000,000l., the real falling-off of the revenue, occasioned by their repeal, was only 965,000l.; so that there had been an advance of revenue on other articles of Consumption, of more than 1,000,000l. He fully concurred in the justice of what had fallen from the noble Duke on a former occasion, as to the elasticity of the resources of this country. He was certain that we had no reason to fear, that we should not be in a condition to meet any demand which might be made upon us, and he verily believed, that we were the only country in the world which could stand at present in that position.

The Duke of Wellington

said, that in the observations which he had offered to their Lordships, he had no wish to depreciate the state of the revenue. He believed that it would be able to meet any demands which might be made upon it. He thought, however, that the noble Viscount was too sanguine in his views, for he had calculated the revenue as as if the repeal of those duties had been in full force for the last six months, whereas it had only operated for the last three. With respect to the propriety of correcting the abuses of the port of London before repealing the coal duties, he was fully convinced, that the noble Earl, before long, would be under the necessity either of collecting the duties of the city of London in the north of England, or of giving to the city of London some compensation in lieu of them. So long as the duties were collected in the port of London, abuses would continue; and so long as the abuses continued, the inhabitants of the southern counties of England could not have those advantages from the repeal of the coal duties which the Legislature intended to place within their grasp.

The Marquis of Londonderry

wished to recommend his Majesty's Ministers to find some substitute for all the imposts which were placed on coal in the port of London. His reason for addressing their Lordships on this occasion was, to explain how it happened that the price of coals was so high, now that the duty had been taken off. The fact was, that the price had been kept up, in consequence of the stoppage which had been put to the coal-trade in the north, by the strike of the men engaged in it. He wished that he could say, that that system, on which the men acted—of standing out for wages—was put an end to; but, at present, there was great dissatisfaction among them, though the coal-owners had gone a long way—some might censure them for having gone too far—to meet their wishes. He was afraid, from the accounts he received from the north of England, that the people there remained very discontented, notwithstanding these concessions. He deplored the combination of the workmen generally in unions, who were assembling for political purposes, under the mask of regulating the trade. He was sorry, indeed, to say, that the men, from assembling for an increase of wages, had now got to assemble for political purposes. The noble Marquis, in corroboration of this statement, read a requisition from certain members of the Northern Union, calling on their fellow-workmen to meet on the 15th inst. to consider of the propriety of presenting an address to his Majesty, expressive of their loyalty and affection to his person, of their determination to pursue a peaceable demeanour, and not to violate the public peace, and of their gratitude to his Ministers for having introduced a measure of Reform, which was calculated to promote, not only the stability of the throne, but also all the best interests of the people. He hoped that these people might refrain from lawless aggression; but he had some fears, when he knew, that at least 20,000 men were expected to meet in consequence. Now, he really thought that their Lordships ought to adopt some measures to check the proceedings of bodies like these Northern Unions; for, he would ask, were the members of such associations properly qualified to give opinions on the measures of the Legislature? He earnestly wished these people to return to their obedience to their employers, and continue obedient to them; and if they did that, there might, yet be some hopes of the prosperity of that part of the country. He appealed to noble Lords, connected with that part of the country, if such proceedings were pro- per and he had adverted to the subject, because he felt both a wish to explain the cause of the high price of coals, and to express the apprehension he entertained as to that part of the country.

The Marquis of Lansdown

augured well, from the advertisement which the noble Lord opposite had just read to their Lordships, of the disposition of the particular classes connected with the coal-trade; for, whatever might be the apprehensions which some persons entertained as to their feelings, it could not but be satisfactory to learn, that it was impossible to convene them together in large bodies, without the profession of sentiments which were at least sound, loyal, and decent. He believed, that their Lordships might, whatever apprehensions existed as to the general temper of the country at the present time, extend the same remark to other classes of the community, and justly state, whatever were the evil designs of some individuals—and he did not mean to deny that evil designs were entertained by some small classes of individuals—they were not such designs as they dared publicly to avow, even to the lowest orders. It was satisfactory to see, that whenever large bodies of men were to be moved, such was the established loyalty of feeling in the country, that it was impossible to bring them into action without calling upon them, in the name of love to their Sovereign, while a constitutional obedience to his lawful mandate was ostentatiously professed. He did not, however, rise so much to make these observations, as to confirm those satisfactory conclusions which might be fairly drawn from his noble colleague's speech, as to the state of the revenue. With respect to the repeal of the duties on coals, that repeal must be imperfect as long as any local duties remained, either in this or any other part of the kingdom. He believed that Ireland would be very much benefited by a total repeal of all such duties. They ought to be done away—totally done away—in Dublin, as well as in London; and an article that was next to bread, as the foundation of subsistence—that contributed to the physical comfort and enjoyment of the poor quite as much as bread, at the same time, that it was the great means of providing them with employment, and adding to the national welfare—ought to be free as air, and freely carried to and from every part of the kingdom. It ought to find its way as readily to the furnace of the manufacturer as to the kitchen of the poor man; and ought, in no port or place, to be interfered with by Custom-house or Excise Officers, or impeded in its free circulation. That was, in his opinion, most desirable; and he, therefore, regarded the repeal of the duty, as far as it went, with much satisfaction. With respect to the general state of the revenue, he agreed with the noble Duke, that it would be satisfactory if there were a larger surplus revenue; and he wished that the surplus were much greater than it actually was. He believed, however, that, with all the reductions proposed, the surplus would not be less than 300,000l. or400,000l. There were two ways in which the surplus might be looked at. It might be kept up by keeping up all the present taxes, or they might be reduced, with a view of promoting the prosperity of the country, and so increasing the resources and providing a large additional revenue at some future time. He was happy to say, that the country was once more in such a situation, that the repeal of taxes on articles of consumption, did not lead to a diminution of the revenue, but rather to the reverse, in consequence of the additional employment which it gave to capital employed in manufactures. He looked forward to a great improvement in the revenue, by so removing taxes as to allow the natural resources of the country to expand themselves by means which at once gave relief to the poor, and encouraged the capitalist to embark his means in providing fresh employment for them. They ought to look to the repeal of taxes which would have such effects; and the repeal of the tax on coals possessed all these good qualities. It encouraged trade; it stimulated manufactures; it furnished, at once, relief to the lowest classes of the population, and means of increased exertion to the capitalist; and thus, by extending the resources of the country, provided the materials of increased revenue to the future statesman. A similar result would be produced by the repeal of the tax on printed cottons, which formed part of the same plan; that repeal had, in particular, been very beneficial to Ireland; and he, therefore, concluded, that both taxes had been rightly selected, as fit objects for remission, by his Majesty's Government. He trusted that their Lordships would never be betrayed into any hasty alterations of their system of finance; for, from all such alterations, great danger necessarily ensued. The best mode of proceeding was, to change, cautiously and gradually, such parts of it as they might deem defective. That mode had been adopted in the present Bill, and he trusted that their Lordships would proceed to review the remainder of the taxes in the same spirit, and to repeal such of them as pressed on industry, and fettered trade, and the repeal of such taxes would both give immediate relief, and promote future production.

The Bill read a third time, and passed.