STATE OF IRELAND. (Hansard, 2 March 1824)

The Earl of Darnley

said, he had to apologize to their lordships for the change he had thought it necessary to make, in his motion for sum- 642 moning the House. They were aware that he had given notice of his intention to bring forward, on this day, a very extensive question relative to the state of Ireland; but as he could not at the present time expect the assistance of many noble lords intimately acquainted with Irish affairs, and as he had reason to hope that those noble lords would be able to attend at a future period, he had resolved to postpone his motion. Another reason had also induced him to postpone it; namely, his wish to collect the most accurate and ample information, before he proceeded to call their lordships' attention to the subject. He had intended to move that day for a great variety of papers tending to illustrate the state of Ireland; but he would now confine himself to those documents to the production of which he understood there would be no objection. It appeared from what had taken place elsewhere, that it was intended to take off the bounty at present granted on the exportation of Irish linen—to take it gradually off from the fine, but immediately from the coarse. Considering the state of Ireland, this was a most important I feature in the financial arrangement of the I chancellor of the Exchequer for the year; and he was surprised that it did not occur to his majesty's ministers, that the taking off the bounty on Irish linens, and especially so suddenly off the coarse linen, must tend greatly to increase the evil under which that country laboured, which was the want of employment. He thought that the same political considerations which had last year prevented the removal of the duty on foreign linen, should have, on the present occasion, saved the infant manufacture of the north of Ireland. If the bounty were taken off the coarse linen, the manufacture of which was but recently established, a great addition would be made to the distress of the starving population. And here he could not help noticing an item of the public expenditure, as it had been arranged in another place, in consequence of the receipt of part of the debt due to this country by Austria. He had formerly expressed an opinion, that not a farthing of that debt would be repaid. The sum received was called a "God-send;" and he had no objection to the term, but he thought it would with great propriety be called so, if the money were employed in rescuing the distressed population of the south of Ireland from starvation. In this 643 way it would be much better applied than in repairing royal palaces, or building churches; to which objects, however, as far as they were necessary, he had no objection to the application of public money. He believed, indeed, that in the metropolis the power of hearing divine service was confined almost exclusively to the rich, and that in Ireland the greater part of the Protestant churches were in a state of dilapidation. He must again express his surprise, that the Austrian Godsend was not allowed to fall upon Ireland, instead of being applied in the way proposed by the chancellor of the Exchequer. He must, however, repeat, that he had no objection to building churches, if they were really wanted; and he had always been an advocate for keeping Windsor Castle in repair, but wished that no sum beyond what was necessary should be so expended. With regard to the papers he wished to obtain, he should now move for an account of all the sums granted by parliament for public works, and for the employment of the poor in Ireland during the last seven years; for sums advanced by way of loans of Exchequer-bills or otherwise; the sums paid on the presentments of grand juries; the payments out of the consolidated fund, &c. But he did not think he could do full justice to the task he had undertaken, without stating the truth, and the whole truth, respecting the church establishment of Ireland. He therefore intended to move for an account of the number of parishes and parish churches in Ireland; the extent of the parishes; the number of families residing in each; the number of communicants in the established churches; the number of Roman Catholic families; and other documents of this kind. In moving for these papers he had no other wish than that of bringing under the consideration of their lordships, the real situation of Ireland. The noble earl concluded by moving for the papers he had described; and also that their lordships, be summoned for the 5th of April next.

The Earl of Liverpool

assured their lordships, that he wished not on the present occasion to say one word as to the general question. Neither did he rise to oppose the motion, to which he had no objection; but he wished to say a few words on two subjects, which had been adverted to by the noble earl. The first was relative to that sum of money which had been called a "God-send," and which, 644 the noble earl was surprised, had not been in great part appropriated to Ireland. But their lordships must be aware, that the whole of that sum had been included in the general account of the resources for the year; and if two specific portions of it had been mentioned by the chancellor of the Exchequer, as appropriated to building churches, and repairing Windsor Castle, they must be considered as coming from the general resources of the country. The noble earl, however, appeared to suppose that, while these sums were so appropriated, no money whatever was granted for Ireland. Why, the very reverse was the fact. Large sums were every year voted for that country, and while the noble earl complained of the money being spent here, it was a fact, that only Ireland and Scotland had recently received grants of the public money. Except public works which were necessarily carried on in England, there were no grants of money whatever for this country. Exchequer bills, indeed, bearing interest, had sometimes been advanced, but no money had been bestowed as absolute gifts. In Scotland and Ireland, the contrary was the case; and at this moment there were several works going on in the latter country at the public expense. He thought it proper to make these observations, to set the House right as to the statement of the noble earl, and not to let it be supposed, that the government and parliament had never granted money for the service of Ireland. The other point to which he wished to call the attention of their lordships was, the bounties on linen. In his mind, there could be no doubt as to the general question. There could be no greater absurdity than to grant a bounty which was to be taken out of the pockets of the people on the exportation of a commodity manufactured by them. It was another question, however, when such a bounty had been established, to decide whether it should be immediately taken off or not. If any exportation of coarse linen took place under this system it might, indeed, be an injury to change it; but there was no exportation of coarse linen from Ireland, and this, therefore, was for that trade which the noble earl wished to protect only a nominal advantage; and he could not believe that the loss of a nominal advantage could be of any injury to the linen trade. He should not oppose the motion.