HL Deb 12 October 1820 vol 3 cc559-74

eldest of the daughters was married; I do not recollect if any more were married, but I recollect one was married.

"The question does not refer to any particular family; but did the persons who attended at those entertainments bring their wives as well as their daughters? I have seen the wife of the chevalier Tamasia and his daughters, the wife of professor Mocatti, and the wife of baron Cavaletti.

"Who was the chevalier Tamasia? He had been prefect of Como for some years.

"Were the other persons whom you have named, persons who resided in the neighbourhood? Yes, they were, with the exception of the professor Mocatti, who was of Como.

"Do you recollect whether the clergyman of the place was there or not? I have seen him frequently; at the dance, I cannot say.

"Do you mean that you have seen him frequently visiting her royal highness? Frequently."

Earl of Lauderdale.

—Who is Dr. Mocatti? He is professor of physic at Como, and I believe president of the college.

What college? There is a college, the college of Como, I think.

Is physic taught at Como? I think he is the professor of physic; he is called the professor Mocatti.

Is he not the practicing doctor in that place? He is.

Who is Mr. Cavaletti? Cavaletti was equerry to the viceroy of Italy, prince Eugene; and I believe he was lately in the service of Napoleon Buonaparté; and was at the battle of Waterloo, in his suite.

Was he often at her royal highness's house? Very often.

Besides Mocatti and Cavaletti, and the chevalier Tamasia, whom else can you name that visited at that time? At the dances I do not recollect any other name.

Do you conceive a courier and a lieutenant in his majesty's navy equally entitled to sit down at her royal highness's table? Any body that should sit down at her royal highness's table, by her command, would authorize, I believe, a person of higher rank than a lieutenant of the navy to sit down with him.

Duke of Clarence.

—Early in your examination yesterday you entered into the minute circumstances of your father, was your father ever in the service of any other person than the royal family? I can only speak from report, I believe he has been in the service of lady Charlotte Finch in his late majesty's household.

You having stated, that her royal highness embarked in Sicily to go up to the Levant and to return in her royal highness's suite, except yourself and Lieutenant Flinn was there any body in her suite used to the sea? None that I know of, except one English sailor.

Did you know from the beginning, the time that her royal highness slept in the tent on deck? It was from Jaffa.

Do I understand you rightly, that from the first night that her royal highness slept in the tent, you were fully aware of that circumstance? I was aware of it as much as I could be aware of it, without seeing her royal highness actually on her sofa.

You being aware that no one of her royal highness's suite was used to the sea except yourself and lieutenant Flinn, did you offer to afford your assistance in sleeping under that tent with her royal highness? I did not.

You have stated in your evidence that an English seaman was discharged; where was he discharged? At Athens.

How long had he been on board the polacre? Does the question mean actually on board the polacre, or belonging to the suite of her royal highness?

Belonging to the suite of her royal highness? I should think about two months.

Do you know the reason of the man's being discharged? It was in consequence of a quarrel, and, I believe, a fight with the cook.

There was no other reason than that for his discharge? I never heard of any.

Lord Calthorpe.

—When you state that you have seen the tent during the day partially closed, do you remember on any one occasion while that tent was so closed, having seen Pergami? I never recollect the tent so closed, but when it was closed in consequence of her royal highness having fallen asleep, as I said before, I have closed it partially; but with the exception of that, I do not recollect any other circumstance that should cause it to be closed.

Do you remember at any one time, when it was so closed, having seen Pergami? I do not.

You were understood to have stated, that when you went up on the sea breaking into the polacre, you are quite sure there was no light in the tent? I do not recollect having mentioned any thing about a light on the occasion of the sea breaking into the tent.

Do you recollect whether the tent was usually open in one part of it more than another? No, I do not.

Do you remember at any time having seen Pergami in a blue mantle? I do not recollect ever having seen him in a blue mantle.

When you witnessed that dance of Mahomet in the court of the Villa d'Este, and when you saw her royal highness looking out of the window, can you assert, that it was a dance of that kind, that a woman of virtue or of common delicacy of mind could he hold without disgust? It was not more indecent, in my opinion, than the Spanish Bolero.

Were you not commissioned by her royal highness to convey some message to captain Pechell on board the Clorinde? I was.

Do you remember what the instructions were which her royal highness gave you upon that occasion? I do not recollect them word for word, but the purport of it was, that she would keep her own table in fact.

Do you recollect whether those instructions were coupled with any observation upon the part of her royal highness upon captain Pe-chell's conduct towards her? I do not.

You have said in a former part of your evidence, that her royal highness treated all her servants with a great degree of kindness and affability? Yes.

Do you recollect upon any occasion when her royal highness had given any directions respecting her route in travelling, or the inns to which she was going, suggesting to her any alterations in that route, which you thought it desirable for her to make? I do not recollect ever such an instance.

Who generally arranged the route that her royal highness was to take? I do not know, I imagine it was her royal highness herself.

Earl Grosvenor

—Do you know that the duke and duchess of Torlonia have dined at any time with her royal highness? I think they have. Do you know whether the nephew of the duchess of Torlonia, Carlo Forti, waited at that time at table? It is the first time I have ever heard that Carlo Forti was nephew to the duchess of Torlonia.

Do you know whether Carlo waited at the time at the table? Carlo Forti never waited at table.

What was the nature of the dress worn by Pergami as courier? I think it was a bottle green and gold, turned up with scarlet.

Was it what you would call a handsome dress? A very handsome dress.

Did it resemble a hussar's dress? No, not a hussar's dress; it was richly embroidered with Brandenburghs, I think they are called.

Lord Balcarras

—Did not the swell of the sea occasionally make female attendance absolutely impossible? When there was any sea, that the vessel was in motion, the female attendants were as helpless, if I may use the term, as her royal highness herself.

Is it to be understood that male attendants were absolutely and indispensably necessary, both by day and by night? I should think, that for any thing her royal highness would want, there should be a male attendant that could procure it for her.

Was there any steward, whose duty it was to attend to the cabin, and also to the deck? None in particular.

Earl of Rosebery

—After the sea struck the tent, were the hatches closed? I think they were.

Where were the hatches found for that purpose? I do not recollect that, I do not know where they were.

Can you mention where you ever saw the hatches lying? I cannot call that to remembrance; I do not recollect seeing them in any particular place.

Did you ever see them at all? I have seen the hatches, the sky-lights; I have seen I them on the deck, but at what spot I cannot tell.

Where about? On the deck.

Were they a grating, or closed? They were sky-lights.

Duke of Richmond

—You have stated, that the first time you saw Pergami dine with the princess of Wales in his courier's dress, you do not recollect where he sat; will you swear he did not sit next to her royal highness? I do not recollect the circumstance, I have said so before.

If Pergami had sat next to her royal highness, do you think you should not have recollected the circumstance? I do not recollect it, or I would say so at once.

The following question was put at the request of Mr. Attorney General:

Had you not a Genoese servant of the name of Francesco, attending you at Ruffinelli? I had a Genoese servant, to the name of Francesco, but he was not my servant when we were at Ruffinelli.

Was lie then a servant of her royal highness, and wearing her royal highness's livery? He was.

Do you know where that servant now is?

No, I do not; I have seen him in London, but I do not know where he is now.

When did you last see him in London? I am not quite certain as to seeing him since I came back from France the last time, but I think I have.

Where did you see him when you last saw him? The last time I saw him was at Mr. Vizard's.

The Witness was directed to withdraw.

Then Granville Sharps

esq. was called in, and having been sworn, was examined as follows by Mr. Denman.

Describe to the House what situation you hold in life? I have been in the East India company's service nine years, in the army.

Have you resided in the East Indies? Yes.

How long have you lived there I Above nine years, almost ten.

When did you return from India? About three years ago.

When you resided there, did you ever see the Moorish dance called dema dema?" I have seen the Moorish dance, but did not know it to be called by that name.

Was it accompanied by any expressions? Yes.

Do you remember what those expressions were, the sounds? Different unmeaning sounds, some of which I cannot remember; I do not know that I can remember any.

Is there any thing indecent in this Moorish dance; any thing unfit for women to witness? Certainly not.

Whereabouts are the hands held during the dance? The hands are thrown about in various positions generally above the head.

Are the knees bent; is there any curtseying? Yes it is accompanied by curtseying throughout.

Do the unmeaning sounds you describe form a tune that the dancer dances to? Yes, they sing it to a tune.

Where have you seen this, at Calcutta? I have seen it at Calcutta.

In what places? In the government-house.

Who was governor at the time? The marquis of Hastings.

Was his excellency present while this dance was exhibited? He was.

Was the marchioness there? She was.

And other ladies? Yes, other ladies.

Do you remember whether the bishop of Calcutta was present? Yes, the bishop of Calcutta was present.

Was his lady there? Yes, she was.

It is not asked whether there was any thing indecent in the dance that was so exhibited? Certainly nothing?

That was the ordinary Moorish dance? That was the ordinary Moorish dance.

Cross-examined by Mr. Parke

There are many other kinds of dances danced in the East Indies, are there not? They are all in the same character; sometimes the dances are quicker, sometimes slower.

How many persons danced at the dance you describe? One person at that particular dance I mean.

Are there any dances at which ladies are not present? I never heard of any; I believe not.

The Witness was directed to withdraw.

Then Santino Gugiari

was called in, and having been sworn, was examined as follows by Dr. Lushington, through the interpretation of the Marchese di Spineto.

Were you ever in the service of her royal highness the princess of Wales? I have been.

In what capacity? Factor.

What were the duties you performed in that situation? To keep a watch upon the working people; to mark down their accounts, and to pay them on the Saturday; to take care and distribute the wine to the family, and all other services which the masters commanded me in regard to the house.

Where was it you performed those duties In the Villa d'Este, in the gardens of the Villa d'Este, in the vineyards, &c.

How long did you continue to perform those services? I was born in that place, and when I was eighteen years old I undertook the office of factor.

How long were you in the service of the princess? From the moment she bought the Villa till she left the place.

Do you know Luigi Galdini? I do. What is he? He is a mason by trade. Did you ever employ him? I have. At what wages per day? Two livres of Milan per day.

Do you know a person of the name of Brusa? I do not.

Do you know a person of the name of Raggazoni? I have heard that he was a mason who worked at the Villa, perhaps I may know him by sight.

Do you know Paolo Raggazoni? I do not. Do you remember the grotto at the Villa d'Este? I do.

Do you remember there being at the Villa d'Este two statues of Adam and Eve? I do. Did they ever stand in that grotto? They were in the grotto.

In what room in that grotto did they stand? In the first rotunda or octagon.

Was there another rotunda or octagon? In that grotto?

Yes? There were two octagonals.

Was any cornice made to the rotunda or octangular room in which those statues stood? There was not.

Was there any scaffolding erected, or any work done to the cornice in that octangular room where the figures of Adam and Eve stood? There was not.

Was there any cornice made in any other octangular rooms? There was.

In both or in one only? In one alone.

Describe the passage or mode of communication from the room where the statues of Adam and Eve stood, to the octangular room where the cornice was made.

The Witness made a drawing.

Interpreter—This is a drawing the witness has made of the grotto; the octagon where the statues of Adam and Eve were, and of the octagon where the cornice was made, with the corresponding passages and staircases, &c. [The same was delivered in.]

Could workmen at work at the cornice in the octangular room by possibility see the statues of Adam and Eve in the room in which you have stated them to have been in the grotto? They could not.

Why? Because the passage, the communication, is crooked, and prevents the sight.

Did the statues of Adam and Eve ever stand in any other room in that grotto, except the one you have already stated? They did not.

Was a cornice made to any other room in the grotto, save the octangular room you have stated, since the princess came to the Villa d'Este? It has been made in the highest rotunda that I have marked upon the paper.

Has a cornice been made in any other room in that grotto? A cornice was made in the two rooms; the rotunda and the square room, which I have marked in my drawing.

Could you see the statues of Adam and Eve from either of those rooms in which a cornice was made? I want a better explanation.

Could you see the statues of Adam and Eve from cither of those rooms in which a cornice was made? No.

When were the statues of Adam and Eve removed from that grotto? Before the return of her royal highness.

Return from whence? The return from her journey in Turkey, To what room were those statues removed? Into one of the Mosaic rooms, which was newly built in the palace.

Had those rooms been finished completely before her royal highness returned from the long voyage? They had.

Were the workmen removed from those rooms before the princess returned from her long voyage? Those rooms had been left by all the workmen.

Had the scaffolding been taken away before the princess returned from her long voyage? From the Mosaic rooms, yes.

How long before the princess's return? About eight or ten days before her arrival.

Were those rooms then fit for the reception of her royal highness? They were.

Was the Mosaic room a round room, or not Where the statues were, the room was square.

What was the next room to that where the; statues were? The first room of the Mosaic I rooms, there were the statues; the second was a small oblong cabinet.

Of what shape was the room next beyond the small oblong cabinet? An octagon, or round room with columns.

Could any person at work in that octagonal room see the statues of Adam and Eve? He could not, because they were by the side of the opening.

Cross-examined by Mr. Parke

How long were you in the service of her royal highness? From the day on which she bought the Villa till the day that she left the country.

Were the statues in this octagon you have described when you first went there? I was born at the Villa d'Este.

Were the statues in the octagon you have described when you first entered into the service of the princess of Wales? They were in the grotto.

Were they in the same part of the grotto you have just described? They were.

Was that the largest room in the grotto that they were in? In the first octagon that I have mentioned.

Were they in the largest room in that grotto? I will not say the largest, because the square rooms are somewhat greater than the others.

Then the square rooms you describe are only a little larger than the octagon? They were.

And only a little larger? The exact dimensions properly I do not know, but they were larger than the rotunda.

How many rooms were there in this grotto? Six, comprising the round rooms and the square rooms.

Were they all on the same story? They were not.

Was there one above the other? A person mounts the steps, then comes a level, then come more steps, and then another level.

There was a few steps from one place to another, were there? In some places the steps were few, in some others there were many.

How high was the floor from one part of the grotto above the other? In the height of the first room there were ten or eleven steps, which constituted the height of the room, from the rotunda where the statues were, to the room above.

Do you mean that in going out of the rotunda to the next room, you would pass up eleven steps. About.

To what purposes were the different rooms of this grotto applied? To no purpose, except that of seeing a subterraneous place.

Was the room you have described the only room that had statues in it? The second room had a small statue representing Artemisia weeping on a tomb.

Was that the only room, besides the octagonal room yon have mentioned, that had statues in it? It was the only one.

Were the rooms open to each other? After the steps.

After the steps, they were open to each other? The two rooms communicated together, the first room was the rotunda, in which there were the statues; on mounting the steps came the second room, where Artemisia was; after the second room, on the same level, there was another room, a gothic room; there is a passage, and then one step on the right, after two or three steps there is a rotunda? after this rotunda, on the same level, there is a second rotunda, larger, where a cornice was made; after that rotunda comes a half-square room.

Then the two rotundas you have mentioned were on the right, after passing through the two first rooms? You turned on the left and then you turned on the right.

Then you passed through one rotunda to go into the other; Yes, but a person may pass also by the left; there are two openings.

Were all these passages open? They were open.

Were there no doors at all? No.

No doors in any part of those grottoes? There were at the beginning and the end two iron gratings, a species of gates.

Could a person see through those gratings or gates? Yes, because they are open; the divisions are much apart.

Was there a pillar between them for them to rest upon? They shut up the entrance and the exit.

Did they open close upon the wall or pillar? They were attached to the wall.

They were fixed on each side into the wall; but what was there in the middle to support them? The gates were of one piece, and they shut against the opposite wall.

Were there any pillars in this grotto in any of the rooms? There were.

In which of the rooms were these pillars In the second room after the rotunda, small columns.

Look again at the plan you have drawn. Looking at that again, will you swear that is an accurate plan of the place? I cannot call it exact, because there are not measures or proportion.

How long is it since you came to England? About ten or eleven days.

Did you come direct from the Villa d'Este? I did.

Did yon see a man employed in the Villa d'Este to take plans of different places? I have seen several persons belonging to government taking drawings, plans, but this I do not know.

Did you not see an architect of the name of Ratti employed in taking plans at the Villa d'Este? Yes, I have.

When was it that you saw him? I cannot mention the exact time.

You are not asked the precise time; did you not see him within a month or six weeks? It is more; if is about three or four months.

It is three or four months from this time that you saw him? Yes.

Does Ratti live at Milan, or at Como? He lives at Milan.

Did you come with any witnesses here? I did.

How many? Fourteen.

Did you collect and conduct those witnesses here? No.

Who was it that did? The will of those witnesses who came with me.

Did they all pay their own expenses? They came by their own will; but the expenses were not paid by them, but were defrayed by the order of chevalier Vassali.

Did Vassali come with you? He did not.

Who paid the expenses on the road for those people? I paid for their victuals.

Of all the fourteen that you brought? Yes.

Did you apply to any persons to be witnesses for the Queen before you came? To no one.

Did not you apply to one single person to be a witness? To no person.

When did you set out to come with those witnesses? A month last Sunday; I set off on the 10th of September.

Were you examined before you came? I was.

Where were you examined? At Milan.

By whom? The advocate Codazzi, and an Englishman called Henry.

Did you give the same account to them that you have done to-day? All that was true I have said.

You are understood to say, all you have said to-day? No.

Did not you say, you had told all that was true? Yes.

And you told all that was true to the advocate at Milan? Yes.

Then did not you tell him all you have said to-day? I was not questioned as I am questioned here.

Who has examined you since you came here? A gentleman, an advocate here, I do not know his name.

What was it you were not interrogated about by the advocate at Milan? There are many things that I have been questioned here, and that the advocate at Milan has not questioned me upon.

Did you endeavour to get information from the witnesses that had been examined at Milan before that? No.

What sum of money do you receive for coming here? Eifty Napoleons or twenty francs each, for all the company, for ail the fifteen.

Have you received any thing for yourself? I have not.

Are you to receive any thing? ask for nothing, but if her royal highness will make me a present I will receive it, but I ask for nothing; for I have come here to tell the truth only.

Have you received no promise of any sum of money? No.

Have you received no promise of any money, though not of a particular sum? No.

Neither from Vassali, nor Pergami, nor any other person? No.

Will you swear that you expect nothing? What have I said "before? if they make me a present I will take it; if they do not, I will ask for nothing; I do not claim any thing.

Upon your oath, do you not expect money, from some person, in consequence of coining here Yes.

Is it to be understood that you will swear you do expect money, or that you will swear you expect none? I do not understand the question.

Is it to be understood that you will swear you do expect money, or that you will swear you expect none? I repeat again that I have come to tell the truth without hope of receiving money.

Give a distinct answer to that question, will you swear that you expect no money I swear that I do not claim money, but if they should give it to me, I do not refuse it.

Will you say yes or no, will you swear you do not expect money? No.

How did you travel here, in what way did you travel In a carriage.

By post? By post.

Did you pay your own expenses? For the expenses of food, but not for the post.

Did you pay for the expense of food out of your own money? No.

Who gave you the money? The chevalier Vassali.

Who paid the posting? The courier.

What was the name of the courier? He is called Francis.

What other name? I do not know his family name.

Examined by the Lords

Earl Grosvenor

—Are there any other columns in the grotto than those you have described? There were.

Where were they? There is one between two windows in the third room.

Was there any pillars in the grotto, from which it was possible to see the statues of Adamant! Eve? There was no column to enable a person to see Adam and Eve.

Was there any column or pilaster from which a person might see the statues of Adam and Eve? There is a pilaster before the door with a column before the pilaster, from which a person may see the statues of Adam and Eve. Mark whereabouts this pilaster or column was? I have not said, can be seen, but I have said, that before the door there is a pilaster, and before the pilaster there, is a column.

A doubt being suggested, whether the answer to the last question but one was rightly translated, the Interpreter was desired to give it in the words of the witness.

[Interpreter.]—As far as I can recollect, and I think Mr. Cohen agrees with me, that the question put by me to the witness was this, "Was there some pilaster or some column from which those statues of Adam and Eve could be seen—Vi era qualchc pilastro o qualche colonna da cui si potevano vedere queste statue di Adamo e di Eva?" to which he answered, "To see those statues of Adam and Eve?" I said, "Yes;" then the witness said, "There was a pilaster before the door, and a column before this pilaster—Per vedere queste statue di Adamo e di Eva." On my saying "Yes," he proceeded, "Viera un pilastro avanti la porta ed una colonna avanti questo pilastro."

The interpretation was explained to the witness by the Interpreter, and he was desired to state whether it was correct.

That is right; but as I had not understood well your question, I put that to see, and then I said that there was a pilaster and a column.

Earl Grosvenor

—Can you say how far that pilaster was from the statues of Adam and Eve? If I could see the plan which I have drawn, I could show the thing better.

The Plan was handed to the Witness.

Not this, but one that is more clear than this.

Earl of Lauderdale

—What plan do you mean?

Dr. Lushington stated, that the plan referred to by the witness had been drawn by the witness before he came into the House; but wishing that the witness should not appear to do it under the dictation of any person, but from his own recollection, he had not produced that plan.

The Counsel were informed, that if the Witness would swear it was a true plan, it might be put in.

A Plan was shown to the Witness, and he was asked,

Earl Grosvenor

—Is that plan made by yourself? It is.

Is it correct? It is not exact in the measure, but it is a representation of the grotto as it is, except the dimensions.

The Counsel in support of the Bill were asked, whether they wished to put any question upon this plan.

Mr. Parke

—When was this plan made? About an hour, perhaps half an hour, before I came here.

Earl Grosvenor

—Is it, as far as you can recollect, a correct plan of the rooms? It is.

The Plan was delivered in.

Can you say, whether a person placed behind that pilaster, could see the figures of Adam and Eve? I believe not, because the pilaster is out of the room, and the statues of Adam and Eve on are the opposite side, and the room being round, a person cannot see them.

The Witness was directed to mark upon the plan where the pilaster was, which he did.

Was the passage, which you have here described, leading to the rotunda, connected with the rooms in which the persons were working on the cornices, or were those rooms on the other side of the building? People might go inside as welt as outside.

Was the passage which you have here described leading to the rotunda, connected with the rooms in which the persons were working on the cornices, or were those rooms on the other side of the building? For the convenience of carrying in materials, they went outside, because the doors were too narrow to pass.

Was that the room No. 6. where they were working on the cornice? No.

Where were they working on the cornice? They were working on the cornice in No. 11 and No. 12.

Earl of Blesington

—Had those statues of Adam and Eve any fig leaves round them? It represented a vine leaf, which was made of tin, and was painted green.

Were they hung upon a wire? A brass wire.

Was the vine leaf moveable by this wire? It was.

Had both those statues vine leaves? Both.

When they were moved into this mosaic room, did those vine leaves remain on the figures? They remained, and are still there.

Did you make the plan you made just before you came into this House entirely from memory? I did.

The Witness was directed to withdraw.

Then Giuseppe Giarolini

was called in, and having been sworn, was examined as follows by Mr. Williams, through the interpretation of the Marchese di Spineto.

From what place do you come? I came from Milan.

What business do you follow? A master mason.

Have you ever been employed by the princess of Wales on the Villa d'Este? I have.

Do you know a person of the name of Rag-gazoni? I do.

Was he a master workman or a common workman? A daily workman.

Had he any men under his employ at the Villa d'Este? No, I have given a piece of work to seven or eight companions, and they came all together to be paid for their work.

Do you know the grotto at the Villa d'Este? I do.

Do you remember at any time any work being done upon that grotto? I do.

Was that the work to which you allude, when you say you let out some work to Raggazoni and some others? They worked by the day, and not by piece; it was another time that I gave them this work.

Do you remember any cornice work being done in any part of the grotto? I do.

Do you remember there being any statues of Adam and Eve in any part of that grotto? I do recollect.

Was there any cornice work done in the room where the statues of Adam and Eve were? No, nothing at all.

Was there any cornice work done in any other part of the grotto, according to your memory r At the top, where there was an octangular room, there was another room, which I had built myself, and they worked in no other room but that.

Were they at work upon the cornice in that room? Upon the cornice.

That is the work of which you spoke? It is.

Had they scaffolding up for that purpose? They had to reach the ceiling;

Has there been any scaffolding put up in any other room or part of the grotto but that? In no other but those two rooms, the octangular room and the square room.

Did the square room join to the octangular room? Yes.

Was the square room or the octangular room nearer to the statues? The octangular room.

From the place where the scaffold was set up in order to work at the cornice, could any person see the statues of Adam and Eve? In no way could those statues be seen, because the passage is all winding.

Do you mean the passage from the square and octangular rooms towards the room in which the statues stood? First coming from the octangular room, there comes another room, and then another passage, and then another room where the statues were.

Was the passage you have just described the winding passage to which you alluded before? Yes, winding; and there are steps.

Do you know a person of the name of Restelli? I do.

What is his other name? Giuseppe; I know no other.

Do you know whether the man is in England; have you seen him in England? No.

Do you remember to have seen that Restelli before you left Milan? Before he was away from Milan, when I came.

Do you remember to have seen him at Milan before you came over to England? Long before; much time before; we have been together, and I have seen him.

At that time do you remember any thing being said by Restelli upon the subject of your having worked for the princess?

The Solicitor General

objected to the question, and asked, to what part of the evidence of Restelli it was meant to be applied?

Mr. Williams

said, he referred to pages 226, 234, and 441 of the printed Minutes, The Solicitor General—Give me a little time to look at it, for I certainly shall object to this question, unless some good and valid reasons be offered for pressing it.

Mr. Williams

—I am about to establish a contradiction in Restelli's evidence. He applied to witness to come over here and give evidence, and tendered him money, or an equivalent for money for his evidence.

The Solicitor General

—Unless that be distinctly referred to in the former examination of Restelli, I shall certainly object to this question.

Mr. Williams

said, he was about to apply his questions particularly to those parts of Restelli's evidence which were contained in pages 226, 234, and 441 of the Minutes. He was about to establish the fact, that Restelli had come here to give evidence on an offer of money or some equivalent. He would go further, and show, that Restelli himself had been employed by the Milan Commission to collect evidence against her majesty, and they would find, in page 226, an admission that he had actually sent over a witness, Raggazoni. Their lordships would there find that Restelli told him he must go to Milan to be examined, as the government wanted him.

The Lord Chancellor

asked whether that was not on the cross-examination?

Mr. Williams

said it was, and then referred them to page 234, in which the witness, Mejani, stated that Restelli was the person who told him he must come to England. He next adverted to page 411, containing the point of Restelli's evidence which he was prepared to contradict. Restelli had then denied that he offered money to the witness. But their lordships would recollect, that this was not a common case in which the strictness of legal rules ought to be enforced. They had not the same opportunity, as in other cases, of inquiring what was done by the civil agent. In the courts below there were alwa3's two parties; but that was not the case here. The Queen was certainly in attendance, but it was not ascertained * See Vol. 2, p. 1096. † Ibid, p. 1102. who the party was, or whether there was any party on the other side. No strict analogy could therefore be supported. He would say, however, with great deference, though, at the same time, with great confidence, that it might form a most material feature when their lordships came to decide on the credibility of the evidence, how far that evidence was obtained by promises of reward. Besides, he could prove against that person a great activity of agency.

The Lord Chancellor

observed, that it was then so near four o'clock, that they could not bring the argument to a conclusion; but he would beg to call the attention of the counsel on both sides to page 412, from which it appeared, that Restelli, on being asked whether he had offered any body money for coming here as a witness, answered that he had not.*

Mr. Brougham

stated, that there were two grounds of objection; first his agency, and, secondly, the contradiction of his evidence.

The Solicitor General

said, that Restelli having denied that he had offered money to any one, if his learned friends, had any witness to produce who could prove that he had, no objection would be made to the production of such evidence.

The Counsel were directed to withdraw; and the House adjourned.

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