HL Deb 09 October 1820 vol 3 cc433-56

What do you mean by the term "particulier" a private courier, or in what other sense do you use that word?

He was a courier particularly attached to general Pino, as a person of trust or confidence

You did not see any thing of Pergami between the year 1808 or 1809, when you saw him in the service of general Pino? No.

At what period in the year 1808 or 1809, was it you saw him in the service of general Pino? I have already stated that I do not particularly recollect the year; it was when general Pino's division was marching towards Barcelona.

Can you say at what time of the year it was? It was at the beginning of winter.

You cannot say whether that was the beginning of the winter of 1808 or 1809? I cannot precisely slate the period; I know it was the beginning of winter.

How long had you an opportunity of seeing him in general Pino's service? As a division does not always remain together, a brigade which was detached from the rest of the division; that being the case, I cannot say exactly how long he remained where I was.

Was the army in march at the time you knew him? We were not actually in march, but we were about to move in order to pass the river Fluvia.

Did you see whether Pergami was in a courier's dress or not? Always in common clothes.

Have you been in England before you were here this time? Never.

When did you come to London? I first came to London nearly six weeks ago, or a month and a half ago.

Have you remained in England ever since you came? The first time I remained in England twenty days.

Where did you go afterwards? To Paris, where I am established.

Did you remain at Paris, or did you go anywhere else? I never moved from Paris, for we cannot quit that place without leave from the general of division and the minister of war.

Were you at Beauvais when you went to Paris? In going to Paris I was with a messenger; the road to Paris is through Beauvais, but it so happens that that town is passed at night, because it is with a messenger who never stops.

You are understood to state, that you passed through Beauvais in the night time? Yes, because the courier regularly passes through Beauvais in the night, and I left Calais with the courier, who goes on regularly without stopping.

Do you know a person of the name of Rossi? I have known several persons of the name of Rossi.

Do you know a person of the name of Rossi who comes from Lugano? I know a family of the name of Rossi who are of Lugano.

Did you see that person either at Beauvais or at Paris? I saw him once at Paris.

Was that when you were at Paris the last time? No, it was previously to my coming to England the first time.

How long ago is that? It was previously to my coming it may be between two and a half and three months ago.

Had Rossi any persons with him that were coming from Lugano? I do not know.

Had he any persons with him at the time you saw him? He was alone, there was nobody with him.

Had you heard of the tumult that had occurred at Dover at that time? I read the account of it in the French papers.

Did you communicate that to Rossi? No, there was nothing mentioned of that.

At no time at Paris? I never spoke of it to him, because I saw him but once, and that was only for a quarter of an hour at the most.

That was the only time you saw him? It was the only lime; and I only remained with him, perhaps, a quarter of an hour.

Who applied to you to come here? The Queen, by a letter of her's.

Examined by the Lords.

Lord Cathcart.

—At the time the first hussars were in the brigade commanded by your brother, what was the rank next above that of a private hussar? The first or lowest degree is the common hussar, then comes brigadier, or corporal, then mareschal de logis, that is not the same thing as a quarter-master.

Do you mean that mareschal de logis is that which is most equivalent to what a Serjeant is in the foot? It corresponds with the rank of Serjeant in the infantry.

You are understood to have said, that you saw Pergami confidentially employed as a courier by general Pino?

The following question and answer were read over to the Witness:

"What do you mean by the term "particulier;" a private courier, or in what other sense do you use that word? He was a courier particularly attached to general Pino, as a person of trust or confidence."

Did you not understand Pergami at that time to be general Pino's own servant? There is some difference; a particular courier, attached to a person of rank, is not looked upon as a servant, as a domestic, in Italy.

From whom did you understand that he received his salary? I know nothing of it, because I did not belong to the household of general Pino; I was a superior officer there, and could not meddle with general Pino's private affairs.

You did not understand that he was in the service of the public, or of any department of public service? I have twice stated, that Pergami was attached as courier particulier to general Pino; farther I cannot tell, because I did not belong to the house of general Pino; being a superior officer, I did not trouble myself with his private affairs.

The Witness was directed to withdraw.

Then Carlo Forti

was called in; and having been sworn, was examined by Mr. Brougham, through the interpretation of the Marchese di Spineto, as follows:

Were you a courier in the service of her royal highness? I was.

When did you enter it? On her departure from Milan.

Do you recollect whether that was in the year 1817? Yes.

In whose service were you immediately before? Before I entered the service of her royal highness I was in the service of the viceroy of Italy.

What were you in the viceroy's service? As chief cabinet courier.

You have said, that you entered the princess's service at the time that she was going away from Milan; where was she then going? She was going to Rome.

Did you apply to be taken into her service? I did.

From what motive did you make that application? Because at that moment I was out of service.

You have stated, that the princess was going to Rome, have you yourself any relations there? Brothers.

Any other near relations? The duchess of Torlonia.

The wife of the banker there? Yes.

What relation is the duchess to you? She is my aunt.

On the journey from Milan to Rome, in what carriage did the princess travel? In a small English landaulet.

How many other carriages had her royal highness with her upon that occasion? Two more.

What sort of carriages were those two? One was a bastardella, and another was a caratella or calash.

What sort of a carriage is a bastardella? It is a covered carriage, with four seats inside.

Was the landaulet of which you have spoken an English carriage? It was.

Was it a different looking carriage from the bastardella? Certainly.

Was that a carriage of a perfectly different appearance? Quite so.

Was it also perfectly different in appearance from the caratella? Certainly.

Had her royal highness any other carriages than those three with her upon that journey? No.

Upon that journey, in which of the three did her royal highness herself travel? In the landaulet.

Had the landaulet glasses, as is usual with such carriages? It had.

Had it Venetian blinds? It had.

Had it any curtains? It had.

What sort of curtains? Silk.

Do you mean silk curtains which drew aside, or which drew up and down with a spring? The curtain was pulled down by the means of two strings which kept it confined, and was lifted up by a spring.

Do you remember her royal highness leaving Rome to go to Sinigaglia? I do.

Did her royal highness travel by night or by day? By night.

Do you know where they slept on the first night on the road? On the road.

Where did her royal highness rest the first day on the road? At Otricoli, at nine in the morning.

Where did her royal highness rest the second day? At ten in the morning, at Nocera.

About what time did they arrive at Sinigaglia? On the following day at eleven o'clock.

Do you know a person of the name of Sacchi or Sacchini, who is in her royal highness's service? I know Sacchini.

Did he accompany her royal highness on the journey you have just been speaking of? He did.

How did he travel upon that journey? From Milan to Ancona on horseback, and from Ancona to Loretto; and from Lorelto to Rome, he set out a day before her royal highness in the caratella in the evening, and there I mounted myself on horseback, and accompanied her royal highness as far as Rome.

Did you mount on horseback at Ancona or Loretlo? At Loretto.

From Rome, when her royal highness went to Sinigaglia, how did Sacchi travel, and how did you travel? He travelled in the Caratella before, and I on horseback with the carriages.

How long before did Sacchi set out upon that journey in the caratella? Two hours before.

What was his business to do on that journey, going before her royal highness? To order horses, and to pay for the horses.

How did you travel yourself upon that same journey? Always on horseback.

Did you accompany the carriage on horseback? Always.

When you came near any stage, did you go before her royal highness's carriage? About half an hour before reaching the end of the stage.

Do you mean to say, that, except that half mile before reaching the end of the stage, you always rode close to her royal highness's carriage? I do.

Did Sacchini order horses for her royal highness in the way you have described going before her royal highness in the caratella the whole of the way from Rome to Sinigaglia? He did; and he paid for them at the same time.

Did any other person ride as a courier with her royal highness on that journey, except yourself? No, there was no other.

If there had been any other must you have seen him? Certainly, because I was always there.

Did any other courier or person on horseback, except yourself, accompany any of the other carriages upon that journey? No one, except myself.

Who travelled with her royal highness in the landaulet upon that occasion? Her royal highness, countess Oldi, Pergami, and Victorine.

In whose lap did Victorine generally sit upon that journey? Very often she was on the knees of her royal highness.

Did you see her also in the morning upon the countess Oldi's knees sometimes? Sometimes.

Where did the countess Oldi sit in the carriage? In the middle.

Do you mean in the middle between the baron and her royal highness? Her royal highness on the right, the baron on the left, and the countess in the middle.

Do you recollect, whether during any part of the journey from Milan to Rome, or from Rome to Sinigaglia, the countess Oldi was in the other carriage from her royal highness? At Loretto she fell ill, and went into the second carriage.

Whose place did she take in the carriage? She took the place of Demont.

Where did Demont go when madame Oldi took her place? She took the place of madame Oldi.

Do you mean she took madame Oldi's place next her royal highness in the middle of her landaulet? I do.

Was this upon the journey from Loretto to Rome, or from Rome to Sinigaglia, that this accident happened? From Loretto to Rome.

After leaving Home to go to Sinigaglia, did Demont, or any body except madame Oldi and the baron, ever travel in the carriage with her royal highness? There did not.

On that journey was madame Oldi always in the carriage and always in the middle, as far as you saw? She was.

Did you always sec her in this situation in the morning, when her royal highness arrived any where? Morning as well as evening I saw her, for I was always there, In travelling as a courier with the carriage of her royal highness, was it your practice for any purpose to go up to the carriage for the purpose of speaking to her royal highness, or any other person in the carriage, at any time? When they arrived at the end of a stage, and the carriage stopped, then I knocked against the door of the carriage, and I asked whether they wanted any thing.

In travelling in that way by night, in what way were the windows of the carriage? In the front there was a glass, and on the right and left by the side sometimes during the night they put up the Venetian blinds.

Could any air, though in a small quantity, then, when the glass was down, and the window altogether open, enter by the Venetian blinds? There was the air that came in by the means of the spring opening the Venetian blinds.

Do you remember about the time that the change took place, and madame Oldi going into the other carriage, and coming back, any accident happening? At Foligno the horses ran away, but this happened in going to Rome.

Do you remember on that occasion any accident happening to the work bag, or any other bag of one of her royal highness's maids? I do not.

Did that accidentat Foligno, the horses running away, happen at the time that madame Oldi changed her place in the carriages? It did.

Did you ever see the baron kiss the princess at any time upon taking leave of her, or at any other time? I never saw him kiss the princess.

Did you ever see the baron take leave of her royal highness upon any occasion? Yes, I have.

What did the baron do, in taking leave of her royal highness when you saw him? He kissed her hand, and nothing else, with much respect.

Did you yourself, on taking leave of her royal highness, on any occasion, kiss her hand? I have.

Did the other members of her royal highness's suite do the same thing? Yes, equerries, chamberlain, and all those gentlemen who came to pay visits to her royal highness.

Were you in the habit of kissing the hand of persons of rank with whom you had formerly served as courier? I did so to the vice queen, as well as to the empress Josephine.

Cross-examined by Mr. Attorney General,

Are you still in the service of her majesty? I am.

Did you travel with her as courier when she came to this country? I did.

When did you last see Pergami? The last time I saw him at St. Omer's.

Did the baron Pergami travel with her majesty the Queen as far as St. Omer's? He did.

Do you know the wife of Pergami? I do.

Where does she live? At Milan.

Pergami has the title of baron della Franchina? He has.

Is his wife styled the baroness della Franchina? I never heard that so.

Have you ever seen Pergami's wife in company with her royal highness? I have never seen her.

Whereabouts does Pergami's wife reside, at Milan, or the neighbourhood of it? She lives in Milan.

In what part of Milan? She lives near the Porta Ticinese; but I should know the streets very well, I should be very well acquainted with the streets, to tell you what the street is.

Have you ever been in the house where she lives? I have.

What sort of a house is it in which she lives? It is a neat house, that fits a private individual.

In what manner does the wife of Pergami live there? She lives as all other persons can live.

In what sort of style or situation? In the style of a private person.

Describe more particularly the style in which she lives? For my part, to tell the truth, I have never been in her house to enquire what she does or does not do.

Has she any servants? She has servants, and a waiting-maid.

How many servants? She has a man servant and a maid who performs the office of a waiting-maid.

How long has she lived in the house in which she now resides? I have always seen her there, but I know not where she lived before.

Do you know the name of the man servant who attends her? I do not know, because I have never been acquainted with him.

How do you know that she has a man servant? I have seen him in the house when once I went to see, but his name I do not know.

Then you have been in the house? I have just told you that I have once been in her house.

When was that? How do you expect that I should remember that; I have been once; it may be about a year ago.

Do you mean to say it was about a year ago? I do.

Upon what occasion was it that you went to the house a year ago? I carried a letter to her.

From whom? From her husband.

Where was Pergami at that time? He was at Pesaro.

Did you go from Pesaro to Milan with this letter? I did not.

Upon what occasion was it you went to Milan at that time from Pesaro? For some business of her royal highness.

Did you go alone? Alone.

How long were you at Milan at that time? two days.

Where did you go from Milan? To Pesaro.

Do you know others of the family of Pergami? There are other relations; there is a certain Louis Pergami, his brother.

Is that the only other relation of Pergami whom you know? There are other persons, his cousins.

What are their names? One is called Bernardo Pergami.

What the others? The other, Francesco Pergami Valolta.

Are those the only relations of Pergami that you know? There are other relations, but I do not know them all.

Do you know any others? There are his sisters.

What are their names? One I know is called Faustina Pergami.

You do not know the others? The others I do not know.

Have you ever seen the countess Oldi? I have.

Is she any relation of Pergami? She is his sister.

Where have you seen the countess Oldi? I have always seen her at the house of her royal highness.

Do you remember any other relations of Pergami? I do not remember any others in the house of her royal highness.

You are then to be understood that all those whom you have mentioned are in the house of her royal highness? They were once.

In what situation was the countess Oldi? Dame d'honneur.

In what situation was Faustina? She kept the account of all the linen. In what situation was Louis? Equerry.

In what situation was Bernardo, the cousin? He was prefect of the palace.

What was Francesco? The accountant.

You have lived with her royal highness for four years, do you mean to say there were no others of the family of Pergami living with her royal highness during any part of that time? I have seen no other.

Do you know Pergami's mother? I do.

Did she ever live in her royal highness's house during the time you were there? She came once to pass a few days at Caprili.

How long did she remain at Caprili? About two months, more or less; I cannot well remember that thing.

Where did the mother live at other times, do you know? She lived at Milan.

Whereabouts in Milan? In the town, in a house.

In what part of the town? I do not know.

When the mother was at the Villa Caprili, where did she dine? Sometimes she dined with her royal highness, sometimes she dined by herself.

Where did Faustina dine? Always in her own room.

Do you mean to swear that Faustina always dined in her own room? I cannot swear that she always dined in her own room, but I saw that she did not dine with the others, and always dined by herself.

Where did Louis dine? Louis dined with her royal highness; he did sometimes, and sometimes he did not.

Where did Raggionato Francesco dine? At our table.

Always? Always.

Do you know Faustina's husband, Martini? Martini, I do.

Where does he live? At Milan.

Did not Martini at one time live at the Villa d'Este? I do not know, because at that time I was not in the house, I was not in the service.

You have stated that Pergami accompanied her royal highness to St. Omer's, did any other of Pergami's family accompany her royal highness to St. Omer's? No one else of the family.

Where did you leave the others of the family? Some at Milan, some at Pesaro.

You have stated several journies you took with her royal highness from Milan to Rome; who were upon that journey? Countess Oldi, baron Pergami, Mr. Hownam, the chevalier Vassali, and Louis Pergami; mademoiselle Brunette and mademoiselle Demont, and the little Victorine.

Who travelled in the caratella from Milan to Rome? Which caratella?

You were understood to distinguish one of the three by the description of a caratella? Mr. William and monsieur Vassali.

Who travelled in the bastardella? Mademoiselle Demont, mademoiselle Brunette, and Mr. Hownam.

Only three? Only three.

How did Louis Pergami travel? Louis Pergami arrived at Rome one day before us; he set out before.

What carriage did Louis Pergami travel in? In a caratella with two seats.

Was that another carriage belonging to her royal highness? It was.

How many carriages accompanied her royal highness when she went from Ancona to Rome? Her own and two more carriages.

How many carriages accompanied her when she went from Rome to Sinigaglia? Three carriages, including her own.

Who travelled from Rome to Sinigaglia in the bastardella? Mademoiselle Demont, mademoiselle Brunette, and Mr. Hownam.

Who travelled in the caratella? Mr. William and Mr. Vassali.

Who in the carriage in which her royal highness travelled? The countess Oldi, her royal highness, the baron, and Victorine.

How did Louis Pergami travel from Rome to Sinigaglia? He set out before.

With whom, by himself? In the caratella, by himself.

Those were the four carriages belonging to her royal highness? They were.

Did they travel in that way the whole way from Rome to Sinigaglia? Yes.

What other couriers had the princess in her service at that time, besides yourself? No other courier; after me there was Sacchini, I and Sacchini.

Was it not very hot weather when they went from Rome to Sinigaglia? Very hot.

Was that the reason of her travelling by night? Her royal highness travelled by night on account of the heat.

In what order did those carriages go forward; her royal highness's first, the bastardella second, and the caratella the third? Her royal highness went first, the bastardella was the second, and the caratella was the last.

Was Teodoro Majoochi on that journey? He was.

Was Racchi on that journey? Ferdinando Racchi.

How did they travel? On the box of the bastardella.

Were there two servants called Soliman and Polidore? Yes.

Were they also on that journey? They were.

[To the Interpreter]—Does the word used for curtain in Italian, apply as well to the blind that lifts up, as to the curtain that draws aside? Yes.

What is the Italian word? Cortina and tendina; there is a little distinction as to their origin, but not as to their meaning.

[To the Witness].—How did Soliman and Polidore go upon that journey? Soliman on the box, and Polidore came a day after, for he remained at Rome.

On that journey from Rome to Sinigaglia, did not you go on, and order horses from stage to stage? No, Sacchini set out from Rome two hours before.

Will you swear you did not go on and order the horses at each stage? No, I remained with the carriagse, and Sacchini set out from Rome in a carriage.

Upon your oath, did you not go on and order the horses at each stage? I will swear, even to a hundred thousand times, that I was always with the carriages.

Who ordered the horses? Sacchini set out before in the caratella.

Then Sacchini travelled in the princess's caratella? No, it was a carriage that he took from stage to stage.

How came you to swear, in your examination in chief, that he went in the caratella? Every carriage is called a caratella in Italy, and I meant a caratella de posta; that is, a carriage he took from stage to stage.

What was the reason of Sacchini travelling, on that occasion, in a caratella? Because he was not fit to mount on horseback; for when he had run a post or two, he was all chafed.

Then he aid travel part of the way on horseback? As I have said before, coming from Milan, as far as Ancona only.

How long had you been at Home before you set out from Rome to Sinigaglia? Two months.

Do you mean to say, that this accident to Sacchini happened two months before you set out from Rome to Sinigaglia? He set out from Milan to go to Rome, and he was chafed five or six stages afterwards; and at Parma requested me to get him a carriage, and to tell nothing to the baron Pergami. He travelled, as I have told you, in a caratella de posta from Rome to Sinigaglia, and changing the carriage at every stage.

Before you set out from Rome to Sinigaglia, had you not been at Rome upwards of two months? Two months at Rome the princess was, June and July; the first of August we set out.

What was the reason of Sacchini's travel- ing from Rome to Sinigaglia in a carriage? Because he was not good to mount on horseback, and he soon got tired, and was chafed.

Did he go any part of that journey on horseback? From Rome to Sinigaglia, and neither from Loretto to Rome.

How long had Sacchini been a courier in her royal highness's service during the time you were there? Twelve or thirteen months at the most.

Was not Sacchini the courier on her royal highness's tour through Germany? He was in her royal highness's service, but I was not, at that time.

Where did you reside during the time you were at Rome? At the hotel of Europe, in the Piazza di Spagna, opposite the palace of the Spanish ambassador.

Did you sleep there? I did.

How long were you at that hotel? Six days.

Where were you afterwards in that house? Do you wish to ask as to me or her royal highness.

You? I always was at the house of her royal highness.

Do you mean to say, you slept at the house of her royal highness every night that yon were at Rome? I do.

Did you ever sleep in any other place? No.

Were you ever at Rome at any other time with her royal highness? No.

As that was the only time, at that period did you sleep every night in her royal highness's house, or did you not sleep elsewhere for a considerable time? I have always slept in the house where her royal highness lodged.

Were you not, at that time when you were with her royal highness, confined in prison? I was not.

Nor at any other time when you were there with her royal highness? When I was with her royal highness, never.

Were you ever in prison at Rome? How, in what way in prison?

Did you ever sleep in prison; were you ever confined in prison? Once I was arrested at a watchhouse at Piazza Collonna for five days.

When was that? It was when I went to fetch the money from the banker, the duke of Torlonia; when I was at Storta, the postillions would not give me the horses, and the postillions began to ill-treat me, and I began to retaliate, to beat them; the postillions came seven against me with their stable forks; I drew out my pistol and fired, and at that time arrived the courier of monsieur Calcagnini, and he held my arm at the time that I pulled the trigger to kill one of the postillions, and he in this way got the fire himself; then the governor, monsieur Calcagnini, saw that I was right, kept me five days under arrest, and then let me go.

Was not the postillion killed? I did not kill the postillion.

Was not one of the postillions killed upon that occasion? No postillion was killed upon that occasion.

Was the courier injured? He was wounded; I made him a hole as large as that here (in the belly.)

Did he not die in consequence of that wound? He was forty days ill; he was my friend; it was through an accident.

When you were at Rome you say you visited Ruffinelli, how far his Ruffinelli from Rome? There are twelve miles from Rome to Frascati, and there is half a mile to go to Ruffinelli from Frascati.

Do you mean twelve Roman miles, or what other miles? Roman miles.

Re-examined by Mr. Brougham.

Is Storta the first stage from Rome? Coming out from Rome to go towards France, it is the first stage.

Do you mean that it was the first stage in going from Rome back to her royal highness? To come to Pesaro.

Were you going then from Rome to Pesaro to her royal highness? I was.

Had you in your charge at that time a large sum of money for her royal highness? Fifteen thousand dollars.

You say this courier whom you had the misfortune to wound by accident was a friend of yours? He was, he is still my friend; and he is at present at Rome.

It was not at him you were firing at the time? No, it was to kill one of the postillions.

Do you mean one of the seven postillions who were attacking you with pitchforks? Yes; and I might have killed perhaps three or four of them, for my pistol had two bullets in if.

Were they the pistols which you had to defend yourself and your charge upon the journey? To defend myself upon the road from Come from the highwaymen, for there are always some highwaymen there.

Examined by the Lords.

Lord Erskine.

—During the whole time you were in her royal highness's service in the manner you have described to the House, did you ever observe any part of her royal highness's behaviour immodest or indecent, either regarding Pergami or any other man? Never, but always with much respect when he spoke to her royal highness.

Lord Ellenbororgh.

—Were you travelling alone when this accident at Storta happened? I was travelling together with the cousin of Pergami.

Do you know why you were released from prison so soon? Because the secretary of state, the governor of Rome, saw that I was right; and monsieur Calcagnini, in whose service the courier was, saw that it was a misfortune, an accident, and he endeavoured to get my liberty.

Earl of Lauderdale.

—Do you know the countess Oldi's husband? I do not.

Lord Prudhoe.

—In what month did the princess go from Rome to Sinigaglia? In the month of August.

At what hour of the day did you arrive at Sinigaglia? Eleven in the morning.

The Witness was directed to withdraw.

Then Lieutenant John Flinn

of the Royal Navy was called in, and having been sworn, was examined by Mr. Denman, as follows:

Are you a lieutenant of the royal navy of England? I am.

Are you now settled in Sicily? I am.

Did you see her royal highness the princess of Wales at Messina in the month of November in the year 1815? I did.

Did you take any command on board a vessel at that time? I did.

What was that vessel? A gun-boat.

Did her royal highness make any application to you, with respect to any voyage? She did.

What was that? To proceed with her on the voyage to Constantinople and other places.

Was a polacre hired for that purpose? Yes.

Who had the command of that polacre? Her royal highness gave me the command of her.

Did you continue in the command of her during the whole time that her royal highness was on board? Most assuredly.

Who fitted up the cabins in the polacre? I did.

Did you fit them up under the direction of her royal highness, or according to your own direction? According to the orders of her royal highness.

And at her expense? Yes.

Was there any surgeon on board during the voyage? When we got to Tunis.

Do you know whether he is now living? I believe not, I have heard he is not.

When he was taken on board at Tunis, did it become necessary to make any alterations in the sleeping place of any other person on board? It did.

What was that? Mr. Pergami's birth was changed into the dining-room.

From what previous situation? From the after-cabin on the right-hand-side of the ship when looking forward.

Do you know the bed-rooms that were occupied by her royal highness, and also by Pergami, during the whole of the voyage? I do; the bed-room of her royal highness was on the starboard-side.

In any situation in which the beds of those two individuals were at any time placed, was it possible for them, from those beds, to see one another? I say no.

Was it your duty to attend to her royal highness, and to see what the arrangement of her apartments was? I have sometimes been called for by her royal highness, to know how the weather was.

From what place has her royal highness called to you? From her cabin.

Has she called to you from any other place in the night? Yes.

When? When sleeping under the tent.

Under the tent upon the deck? Yes.

What was Gargiulo's situation onboard this vessel? He was the captain of the ship.

Was he the acting captain, or the master of the vessel, and you the acting captain? I was considered the captain of the vessel, by order of her royal highness, and all the necessary orders were given by me to the captain of the ship.

Did Gargiulo's situation call on him to attend about the rooms of her royal highness, or about her person? No, most assuredly not.

Supposing her royal highness was to go down stairs for necessary purposes, was that man likely to have any knowledge of such a fact?

Mr. Solicitor General objected to the question.

You understand the sort of occasion to which allusion is made, was there any thing in the duty of Gargiulo, on board the vessel, that should call upon him to know what her royal highness was doing upon that occasion?

Mr. Solicitor General objected to the question.

The Counsel were informed, that they might ask what was Gargiulo's duty on board that vessel.

What was the duty of Gargiulo on board the ship? To attend to the duty of the ship.

His duty was to attend to the men? Yes.

Did that duty call him to be in the part of the ship where her royal highness was? Not at all times; a man could command the ship without being in the apartments of her royal highness.

Was it his duty to attend upon her royal highness, without your having given him orders so to do? No.

Was he in the habit of coming into her royal highness's room of his own accord? He might of his own accord; he could not have gone there without receiving some order from me.

Was that his habit or his duty, without orders from you? It was his duty.

Do you mean, to take orders from you? Yes.

You have mentioned the tent that was sometimes raised upon the deck, how near was the steersman to that tent? About three or four-feet.

During the night and day? Yes.

Did your duty, in the course of the night, call you sometimes to that place? On our return from Jaffa I slept on deck.

The question refers to the place where the steersman was? Most assuredly.

How near was the place where you slept to the tent? Over the helm; I should think about five-feet: I should say less than five-feet.

From the place that the steersman occupied, was it easy to hear what passed within the tent? Speaking generally, I conceive it would be.

Describe what you mean by speaking generally? If the conversation was such as generally takes place between two persons, it might have been heard where I slept and where the steersman was.

You say it might have been heard where you slept; did you, in fact, hear it? No, I did not.

Have you heard conversation from that place passing under the tent? No.

Was it near enough to have heard things that passed in general within that tent? Yes.

Did the tent cover the whole of the deck, or was there a passage left? There was a passage on one side at night.

Were you in the habit of passing along that passage in the night? Yes.

And others of the crew? Certainly.

Do you recollect the light being sometimes put from under that tent to be taken away at night? It was taken away for the preservation of the Ship and all on board her.

How so? We had received information at Athens and at Milo of a great many pirates having been about the Archipelago, and it was then consistent that no light should be seen upon deck—not to give such vessels an opportunity of seeing us by night.

Do you know whether there were any pirate vessels at any time; had you seen any? Yes.

Was the danger of the light being on deck represented in consequence of that to her royal highness? It was.

Was the light removed from the tent, after that representation was made? Yes.

Was there any communication between the interior of the tent and the cabin below? Yes.

What communication was it? A ladder that went down to the dining-room.

How was that communication kept at night, open or shut? It was kept open; the tent covered the passage, but the opening itself was always clear.

Do you remember a tub in which her royal highness occasionally bathed? I do remember there was a tub.

Do you know whether that tub could go into the cabin where her royal highness slept? No.

Do you mean that you do not know, or that it was too large to be placed in the cabin? It was too large to be placed in the cabin.

In the course of the night has her royal highness ever spoken to you from the tent? When having occasion to manœuvre the ship during the night, I have had occasion to disturb her royal highness from her repose, she has then called to me.

When you answered that call, did you open that tent? Sometimes, when I could not distinctly hear what her royal highness had to say, I was obliged to open it.

Do you know where Pergami slept on board your vessel? On the return from Jaffa, I do not know where he slept.

Where did he sleep on the other voyage? On going out he slept in the dining-room.

Do you remember the position of her royal highness's cabin with respect to that of the countess Oldi? Yes.

How was it? The cabin was divided into two divisions, that of her royal highness was much larger than that of the countess Oldi.

Was there any communication between them? There was a door and two sky-lights, two openings on the deck.

Was there any gun upon the deck? Yes, there was.

Did you see her royal highness sitting upon that gun with any person? No.

Did you ever see her sitting in the lap of any person on board that vessel? No.

Did you ever see her with her arms round the neck of any person? No.

Or kissing any person, except perhaps the child Victorine? No.

During the whole time that you had the management of this vessel, and that her royal highness was on board, did you see the slightest impropriety or indecency in her behaviour towards Pergami or towards any other person? No.

Do you remember Pergami going on land at Terracina? Yes.

Did you see him take leave of her royal highness? I did.

Describe what was done upon that occasion by him? Kissing her royal highness's hand on going away from the ship which was occasionally done by all persons on taking leave.

How long have you been in the navy? About sixteen years.

You wear some orders? I do.

What are they? The order of Merit and Fidelity of the king of Naples.

On what occasion did you receive those orders? On the occasion of taking several privateers when serving in the Neapolitan navy at Messina.

Have you received the royal permission to wear those orders? One I have.

Which is that? The third order.

By royal permission I meant the permission of your own king? Yes.

Cross-examined by Mr. Solicitor-General.

How long were you on the voyage from Tunis to Jaffa, as nearly as you can recollect? I do not know the exact date; if you will allow me to look at a memoir I have made—

The question does not call for the precise time, but about what time? I should conceive from two to three months.

How long, as nearly as you can recollect, were you upon the voyage from Jaffa to Syracuse? Nearly a month.

Do you mean to say, that yon were not more than a month? We might have been more, I cannot state exactly to a day without appealing to memoirs.

Will you take upon yourself to say, that you were not two months?

The witness produced a paper, and was asked.

When were those made? They were copied from my own originals.

When? Since I have been on my voyage.

Where are the originals? In Sicily.

Why did you not bring the originals? I did not think they would be wanted.

Why did you make the copies? Because I thought it consistent, I thought I might want them hereafter: I did not consider it necessary to bring the originals with me.

You made the copies because you thought they might be wanted, but you did not think the originals would be wanted, is that so? Yes.

For what purpose were the copies to be wanted? To remember in case I should be asked any particular circumstance, where I had been, by my friends,

Why would not the originals communicate that? Because it is private affairs,

Do you mean to swear those papers you have in your hand were copies made before you came to this country the last time? Yes.

In Sicily? On my voyage on board the ship.

That the copies which you now hold in your hand, were made on your voyage on board the ship? On board the ship; I went from Messina to Syracuse, I heard that persons were called to England, and I expected to be called myself, but I was not called.

You mean that the copies were made at that time? On my voyage.

Can you tell now, without looking at those copies made by you, nearly how long you were on the voyage from Jaffa to Syracuse? We might have been more than a month, I cannot tell particularly without looking at the paper.

According to the best of your recollection will you take upon yourself to say, you were not two months? From one to two months, I should conceive we were, I cannot swear exactly.

Nearer two months than one month? I should think nearer two, when I reflect on the thing.

Will you take upon you to swear that you were not more than two months? No, I cannot take upon me to swear that.

The Witness was directed to withdraw.

Lord Erskine

objected to the mode of examination pursued by the learned counsel. If the witness were not allowed to refresh his recollection by his memoranda, it was unfair to tax his memory in the way attempted. All would probably he clear by reference to the paper in the hand of the witness.

The Lord Chancellor

asked, if the witness had offered to look at the paper.

The Solicitor General

observed, that the memorandum offered by the witness was merely a copy of some previous entry in the log-book, and made during a subsequent voyage. He submitted, therefore, that it could not be produced.

Lord Erskine

added, that if the witness were not allowed to refresh his memory, the counsel was bound to take it with its defects, but not to tax it as he had done.

The Lord Chancellor

seemed to be of opinion, that if the memorandum were not produced, the counsel had a right to tax the memory of the witness.

The Earl of Liverpool

explained, that as the memorandum had not been made at the time of the transaction, in his view it could I not be employed by the witness for the purpose of refreshing his memory.

The Marquis of Lansdown

remarked, that the question was not whether the memorandum should be received in evidence, but whether a copy of the original, which original he understood to have been made at the time, might be used by the witness to refresh his memory, as to dates.

The Earl of Harrowby

did not think that the witness had yet stated that even the original was made at the time of the transaction to which it referred.

The Lord Chancellor

read the following sentence from Phillipps's Law of Evidence:—"To assist his memory, a witness may use a written entry in a book, or a memorandum, or a copy of a memorandum, such entry and memorandum having been made at the time when the fact occurred, or immediately afterwards." Therefore, if the witness swore that the original memorandum was made at the time, and that what he employed was an accurate copy of the original, it seemed to him that it might be used to refresh his memory.

Earl Grey

said, the easiest and most simple way was, to call on the witness, and to ask him as to the nature of the paper he held in his hand. If it should appear that he made an entry at the time, and that the paper was a true and faithful copy of that memorandum, no doubt he could refresh his memory from it.

The Earl of Harrowby

suggested, that part of the witness's evidence should be read from the Minutes, which was accordingly done.

The evidence of the Witness respecting the copies from his journal was read over.

The Witness was again called in.

Lord Chancellor.

—Where did you make those orignal papers that you spoke of? The papers were made on board the vessel which I commanded.

Where, on what voyage? Going from Messina to Catania.

Where did you make what you call the copies of those originals? It was on board the ship.

On the same voyage? Yes.

On your way from Messina to Catania? I went round the island in a vessel of my own.

Did you make the original minutes when you were on board the polacre with the princess of Wales? The original, I did.

Did you make the copies when you were on board the polacre with the princess of Wales? The originals were made on board the polacre.

Where did you make the copies? When I went round the island of Sicily in my own vessel.

Had you the originals with you at the time? I had, on board the vessel.

Are those copies made from those originals? Yes; there are very few lines of them; I did not copy the whole of them.

Are they faithful extracts of so much as they purport to be extracts of? No; perhaps I do not understand the question.

You recollect your original papers? Yes.

Are those you call copies, copies of the whole of those originals? They are not copies of the whole transactions on board the polacre.

Are they copies of any part? Some parts, such as the dates when we sailed from different places, that is all.

As far as you have made copies, can you say, upon your oath, that they are accurate copies of parts of the originals? Yes.

Mr. Solicitor General.

—Have you looked at that memorandum since you have been out of this House? No, I have not.

Look at the memorandum, do not read it aloud, and state how long you were on the voyage from Jaffa to Syracuse?

The witness referred to his memorandum, and said, We sailed from Jaffa on the eighteenth of July, and arrived at Syracuse on the 20th of August.

The paper was shown by the witness to Mr. Solicitor-general, at his desire, and he was then asked,

During the voyage from Tunis to Jaffa, where did Pergami sleep? From Tunis to Jaffa, in the dining-room.

Every night? To the best of my recollection he did.

How do you know that? Because I had frequent occasion to go to her royal highness in the morning to pay my respects, and I saw him in bed.

Were those the only occasions on which you saw him in bed in the dining-room? Those are the only occasions.

Did her royal highness sleep below during the whole of the voyage from Tunis to Jaffa? I believe she did.

When you went to pay your respects to her royal highness, where was her royal highness at the time? In her own room.

In her sleeping cabin? Yes.

Abed? On the sofa.

Dressed or not? Dressed.

And Pergami, on those occasions, in bed in the dining-room? He was in bed.

How many times may you have seen him on the average in a week? I never particularized to haul back the screen, but sometimes when I have gone in, he has said, "Good morning" as I passed.

What kind of a bed was it, or bedstead? I believe it was an iron bedstead, but I cannot positively recollect what it was.

Fixed? No, it was not a fixture, but it was lashed to the side of the vessel.

Do you mean to swear, that from that bed, the bed of her royal highness, when the door was open, might not be seen? I should think not.

Then now it is only you should think not; did you ever stand in such a position as to see to decide that? No, I did not.

Was it your duty to attend upon her royal highness? No, it was not; but when called for I frequently went there.

No other business took you into the dining-cabin in the night? No.

Though you had the command of the ship, you did not go into the cabin at night? I did not, without being sent for.

At any time, cither upon the outward or homeward voyage? On the homeward voyage I have.

Often? Not very often; such as going to dinner.

At night? No.

Never? Never, without being called for.

Who was to call you at night? The crew on deck, when I was not on deck myself.

Who was to call you into the dining apartment at night? Some of the servants of the house—of the ship.

Being so called, you have gone at different times? I have gone when I nave been called for, but I never went of my own accord.

Has that happened frequently? Not very frequently.

Has that happened several times? I cannot specify the number of times, but I apprehend more than once.

Or twice or ten times? I might have been as many times as that, but I cannot possibly recollect the number of times I have been sent for.

Under this tent, on the deck, there was a bed, was there also a sofa? There was a sofa and a bed.

Whose bed? I believe that it was Mr. Austen's bed.

Who slept in that bed? I do not know.

Do you mean to swear, that you do not know that her royal highness slept in that bed? Her royal highness slept on a sofa, not on a bed.

Near that bed? Not very near.

How far off? As far as I am from that seat there.

Three or four yards? I should say three yards.

Do you mean to swear that there was an interval of any thing like three yards between the bed and the sofa? Between the extremities of both, there was a great deal more.

Was there more than a yard between the nearest point of both? Yes, most assuredly there was.

How much? There must have been more than two yards.

Where did her royal highness sleep, on the sofa? Yes.

How do you know that? Because I had occasion to sec her one night, when I went in there.

Is that the only reason you have to know that? That is the only reason; I can testify having seen her royal highness on that bed, and I conceive she always slept there.

Who slept on the bed? I do not know.

For what purpose was it placed there? It was placed there for persons to sit there, during the day.

Do you mean to swear, that it was placed there for people to sit on during the day? That was the occasion I saw it used for during the day-time.

You mean to swear, you believe it was placed there for that purpose? I can state no other purpose; I do not know that any person slept in it, I never saw any person in bed there.

Did you ever see Pergami in bed there? I have never seen him in bed; I have seen him sit on it in the day-time.

Have you never seen him lie upon it in the day-time? No.

Do you mean to swear you have never seen him lie upon it in the day-time? I do.

Had you never the curiosity to inquire where Pergami slept the whole of the voyage from Jaffa to Syracuse? No, I had other duties to attend to, navigating the ship to carry her royal highness about to the different places to which she went, and I did not attend to that.

Have you any doubt that during that voyage, and the whole of it, Pergami slept upon that bed under the tent? I cannot say where he slept, I never went to look after Mr. Pergami; when he was wanted, or where he slept, it is impossible for me to say, I can only repeat that I never saw him in bed.

Have you any doubt that he slept on that bed every night on the voyage from Jaffa to Syracuse? I cannot say.

Have you any doubt upon the subject? I must certainly doubt whether he did sleep there every night, or whether he did sleep thereat all, I cannot say, for I never saw him there, nor do I know where he slept.

Do you mean to say you entertain doubts whether he did sleep there, and believe that he did not sleep there? When I never saw him there, I have every reason to doubt that he did not sleep there.

Do you mean by that to say that you believe he did not sleep there? I believe he did not sleep there.

Where did he sleep? I do not know; I never went to look where he slept.

Did you ever see him sleep in the cabin on the voyage from Jaffa to Syracuse? I never went into the cabin in the day-time, to see whether he was there or not.

Did you ever see him, during any part of that voyage, sleeping in the cabin? I do not know; I never went into the cabin to see whether he slept there or not.

Did you ever, either by night or in the morning, sec him, during any part of that voyage, sleeping in the cabin in his former place? I do not recollect having seen him there.

Do you mean now to repeat, that you believe he did not sleep under the tent? I must again repeat that I do not know where he slept.

Not knowing where he did sleep, you mean to have it believed that you do not believe he slept under the tent? I believe he did not sleep under the tent.

What is your reason for believing that he did not sleep under the tent? Because when I went to see her royal highness one night, I did not see any one there.

Was it light or dark? It was dark.

Of what country are you a native? I was born an Englishman, part of an Irishman.

It being dark, and not seeing him when it was dark, is that the only reason for your belief that he did not sleep under the tent? The light of the binnacle was quite sufficient to give me an opportunity of seeing whether he was there or not; it was dark at night, but there was the light from the binnacle that reflected into the place when I opened it.

Attend to the oath you have taken; upon the night when her royal highness called you, and when you say there was a light from the binnacle, will you take upon yourself to swear that Pergami was not on that bed? I do swear to it.

Was that the only occasion that you saw that bed when Pergami was not there? I have gone there frequently, and seen the bed in the same position, and I never saw him there.

Have you gone there frequently? I have gone there when called for.

And you never saw him there? I never did.

Do you mean to swear, that if he had been there, you must have seen him? Yes, if he had been on the bed I must have seen him.

Do you remember the night of a storm off Candia? Yes, I do.

Did her royal highness go below? She did.

Where did she sleep? She slept on the deck. I did not follow her royal highness to see where she slept; but I believe she slept in the cabin belonging to Mr. Hownam.

Do you not know that she slept on the deck below, by the side of that cabin of Mr. Hownam? She might have slept there at first, and afterwards retired to the cabin of Mr. Hownam; but the occupation of the ship required me to stop on deck.

Did you not see her royal highness below on the deck? I believe at day-light in the morning I saw her royal highness in Mr. Hownam's cabin.

Did you not go below during the night, and see her below during the night? I do not recollect to have done it; it does not strike me that I did: it blew very hard indeed, and required me on deck.

Do you know where Pergami slept on that night? I do not.

Where did you see Pergami in the morning? The first I saw was on his coming on deck; I saw him coming up the ladder.

You mean to swear you never saw him during the night lying on the deck below? No, I did not.

Had you the whole command of the vessel? Speaking of having the command, I had those orders which her royal highness chose to give me at different times, and under those I acted; the ship was hired by her royal highness.

During the whole of that month you mean to swear you never saw Pergami in bed anywhere? I never saw him in bed anywhere; I have seen him sitting on that bed on the deck, but never saw him lying down.

At the helm you could not hear a conversation that passed within, unless it was in a certain tone of voice? Speaking as you are now speaking, I might have heard it; I could have heard it.

When her royal highness called, you did not hear, and were obliged to lift up the tent? Yes, when blowing hard on board the ship, the working of every material on board prevents persons hearing, and I could not distinctly hear what her royal highness said, but I naturally concluded, from having been called on former occasions, that it was to enquire respecting the weather.

The Witness and Counsel were directed to withdraw; and the House adjourned.