§ The order of the day being read for the further consideration and second reading of the Bill, intituled "An Act to deprive Her Majesty, &c, and for hearing Counsel for and against the same; Counsel were accordingly called in.
Then Henry HollandM. D. was called in, and having been sworn, was examined by Mr. Wilde as follows:
417 Did you leave England as physician to her royal highness in the year 1814? I did.
Did you proceed to Naples with her royal highness? I did.
Did you remain the whole period of her royal highness's stay at Naples? I did.
What description of visitors did her royal highness receive at Naples? With a very few exceptions, she received all the principal nobility, both English and Neapolitan.
Where did you go to after you left Naples? To Rome, and subsequently to Genoa.
Were you on board the Clorinde with her royal highness? I was.
What description of visitors did her royal: highness receive at Genoa? All the English that were at Genoa.
Did you ever, during the period you were with her royal highness, observe that her royal highness avoided the English? I did not.
What was the situation of the house occupied by her royal highness at Genoa, as to its publicity? The House her royal highness occupied at Genoa, was about half a mile distant from the town, but in a part of the suburb very thickly inhabited.
Did you know a person of the name of Pergami, in her royal highness's service? I did.
Did he at any time dine with her-royal highness, during her stay at Genoa, at her table? He did not.
During the period that you were with her royal highness at the places you have mentioned, what was her royal highness's conduct towards Pergami? Always that of a mistress to a servant.
What was the conduct of Pergami towards her royal highness? I never saw it otherwise then unpresuming and respectful.
Was there any understanding as to the period during which you were to stay with her royal highness, previous to her leaving England? It was generally understood between us, that I was to remain in her royal highness's service a year and a half or two years.
At what place did you quit her royal highness's household? At Venice.
Had there been any conversation as to your quitting her royal highness's service before your arrival at Venice? There had at Milan.
At what suggestion was it that you went on to Venice? At my own suggestion.
When you left her royal highness at Venice, did you then finally quit her service, or was it understood you were to return? It was understood I was to return.
Did you leave any of the articles belonging to you in her royal highness's house with an intention of returning? I did.
What was the occasion of your leaving her royal highness at Venice, and coining to England? At Milan her royal highness had suggested to me, that if I desired it, I might have an opportunity of six weeks absence, to 418 make a tour in Switzerland: in consequence of this, I expressed my own wish at this period, that, instead of going to Switzerland, her royal highness would allow me a short additional absence, from my wish to go to England on account of private affairs: to this her royal highness assented, and it then became merely a question, whether I should go forward to Venice or go immediately from Milan.
You have mentioned that her royal highness received all the principal nobility at Genoa who happened to be there; do you recollect the name of any of the English nobility who visited her there? Lord and lady William Bentinck, lord Exmouth, lord Malpas; generally the superior officers who were attached to the army at Genoa.
Cross-examined by Mr. Solicitor General
Did you go from England with her royal highness? I did.
Do you remember when you were at Genoa, Pergami meeting with any accident? I do not.
At Naples? I do.
Was he in consequence of that confined to his bed for any time? He was, during three or four days.
Do you know who was the servant who attended him during that time? Majoochi.
Did not Majoochi during that time sleep in a small cabinet adjoining the room occupied by Pergami? I am not aware where Majoochi slept?
Do you remember that there was a sofa in that cabinet? I do not.
Are you to be understood by that, that you do not remember one way or the other whether there was or was not? I do not recollect one way or the other.
With respect to the situation of her royal highness's house at Genoa, you state, that it was in the suburbs, but that the suburbs were populous, was it not within a court, and surrounded by a garden, or a garden extending through the whole of the back of the building? There was a small garden in front of the house, and a terrace garden with a wood behind the house.
Were you in the habit of dining every day with her royal highness at Naples and at Genoa? At Genoa every day, at Naples not.
Do you remember being at the Masquerade at Naples, or the masked ball at Naples, that was given to the Neapolitan king? I was not there.
Were you ever at a masquerade at the Theatre San Carlos when her royal highness was there? I was.
With whom did her royal highness go there? I was not aware till the following morning that her royal highness had been there.
Did you remain there during the whole, or nearly the whole of the performance? Only about an hour, as far as I can recollect; certainly a short time.
419 Are you to be understood that you do not know with whom her royal highness went to the theatre that evening I do not.
You have stated, that as far as you observed, the conduct of her royal highness towards Pergami was the conduct of a mistress towards a servant; have you upon any occasion ever observed any impropriety of conduct in her royal highness towards Pergami; or have you ever stated that you had made any such observation? I never did observe any impropriety.
Are you acquainted with a minister at York? lam.
Having reminded you of that circumstance, will you allow me to ask, whether you have ever stated, to any person, that you disapproved of the conduct of her royal highness with respect to Pergami? I never have.
Have you ever informed any person whatever, that you did not think the conduct of her royal highness correct, or any thing whatever to that effect? I have not.
You are asked that, not merely with reference to the individual mentioned, Pergami, but whether you have made any observation to any individual whatever with respect to the conduct of her royal highness, derogatory to that conduct? I am so satisfied of the negative, that I can venture to swear it.
Have you always entertained the same opinion, since you have had an opportunity of observing her royal highness, with respect to her conduct? I feel it quite impossible to describe, to my own recollection, the fluctuations of opinion I may have had; but this I am satisfied of, that I recollect no change whatsoever of opinion.
Did you ever state, or did you ever inform any individual whatever, that the conduct to the her royal highness was such that no person who had a regard to his character, could continue in her service, or any thing to that effect? I am satisfied I have not.
Did your duty lead you to be much about the person of her royal highness? Very little.
You were engaged then in your own pursuits, your own studies principally? Inasmuch as they did not interfere with my professional duties to her royal highness and her suite.
At Naples particularly, you were understood to state, that you were much engaged yourself? Not more at Naples than elsewhere during my absence from England.
You were understood to say, you did not very frequently dine with her royal highness at Naples? I did say so, or rather I said, that I did not always dine with her royal highness at Naples, and always did at Genoa. Was not the principal opportunity which you had of observing her royal highness, that which was afforded at the time when you d ned? It was.
Except when you were required professionally to attend her royal highness, you did not 420 attend her either in the forenoon or in the evening, but merely attended for the purpose of dining? Except when her royal highness saw society in the evening, I did not.
During those occasions, when you did dine, Pergami acted as waiter at the table? He did.
Both at Naples and at Genoa? Both at Naples and at Genoa.
How long were you at Milan before you proceeded to Venice? I believe exactly a fortnight.
Do you remember, during the time of your residence at Genoa, any individuals belonging to the family of Pergami joining her royal highness I do.
His sister Faustina? I was not aware of that.
Do you mean that you were not aware that Faustina was his sister, or that you were not aware that Faustina entered into the service of her royal highness? I was not aware that any person of that name entered into the service of her royal highness.
Did you know a person of the name of Martini? I did not.
Was there a little child that came, of the name of Victorine? There was a little child came, whose name I did not know.
Was there a female came with that child? I saw an elderly person, whom I believed to be the mother of Pergami.
The only female whom you recollect as having come with that child, and having entered the service at Genoa, was the person so described as the mother of Pergami? I do not recollect any other, but it is perfectly possible.
Do you remember a person of the name of Louis Pergami entering the service? I do.
In what capacity did he enter? I am not aware.
Did you see him wait as a servant at table? I did. Did he wear a livery? He did. About what period of your residence at Genoa was it, that Louis Pergami entered into the service of her royal highness? I do not recollect.
Was it towards the beginning or towards the latter end, as far as you recollect? As far as I recollect, towards the beginning.
How long did lady Charlotte Campbell continue will you at Milan? Till within three or four days of her royal highness's departure from Milan.
After she left, was there any lady in the service except madame Oldi? There was not. How soon after lady Charlotte Campbell left, did madame Oldi enter? As far as I recollect, two days afterwards.
You did not travel in the same carriage with her royal highness? I did not; I have occasionally done so, but rarely.
The question refers to the journey from Milan to Venice? I did not.
When madame Oldi first came into the ser- 421 vice at Milan, were you aware that she was the sister of Pergami? I was not.
How long was it afterwards before you knew that she was the sister of Pergami? I did not know it while in attendance upon her royal highness.
What period of time elapsed after madame Oldi came into the service, before you ceased to be in attendance upon her royal highness? About eight days.
When you arrived at Venice, at what hotel did you lodge? At the Gran Breltagna.
Did her royal highness continue there during the whole period of her residence at Venice? She did not.
How long did she remain there? I rather think, in the hotel itself, but one night.
Where did she go to then? To a house immediately adjoining the hotel, and, I believe, belonging to it.
Was Mr. William Burrell of your party? He was.
Did you and Mr. William Burrell go to the house with her royal highness, or did you remain in the hotel? We remained in the hotel.
Did you dine with her royal highness at the house to which she removed, or did you dine in the hotel? We dined in the house to which she removed.
With her royal highness? With her royal highness.
Do you happen to recollect whether you dined with her every day during your residence at Venice? I believe every day.
Did her royal highness quit Venice before you did, or did you go first? I went first.
Did you ever afterwards rejoin her royal highness? Never.
Do you know whether madame Oldi could speak French? I do not know.
Did you ever hear her speak French? I always conversed in Italian with her.
Re-examined by Mr. Wilde
You have been asked whether the house which her royal highness occupied at Genoa was in a garden; was it in a conspicuous situation, or a private situation? In a conspicuous situation.
Was it a particularly conspicuous situation? The house was raised upon a terrace.
Was it conveniently situated for receiving visitors from Genoa? I believe it was.
You have stated when you returned to England; have you remained in England ever since? No, I have not.
How long have you been in England since you quitted her royal highness's. service? I have been three or four times absent from England during that interval, which interval is nearly six years.
Have you generally resided in England during that period? I have; my absences were always for a very short period.
Have you been practising as a physician in England? I have, during the last five years in London.
422 Have you ever been examined by any one; during that period, respecting the conduct of her royal highness? Never.
Has any person asked you to be examined during that period? Never.
Examined by the Lords
§ Lord Erskine—Referring to the whole time, and to all the places in which you have stated you were attending upon her royal highness, did you ever observe any indecent, immodest, or improper behaviour in her royal highness? I did not.
§ Earl Grey—Have you at any time observed, on the part of her royal highness, any conduct calculated to bring disgrace upon the character of this country? I believe I can answer decidedly not.
You were understood to state, that you have never been examined upon this subject, previous to the charge being brought against her majesty before parliament; was any application made to you by any person for information respecting her majesty's conduct during the time you were in her service? No application whatsoever.
Earl of Lauderdale—Did you attend Pergami during his short illness at Naples? I did.
How did you go into his room, by what door? I went in by the passage which communicated at right-angles with the passage in which my-bed-room was.
Then you had no occasion to pass through that cabinet which you say was adjacent to the room of Pergami? As far as I recollect I passed through no cabinet in going from Pergami's room to mine.
In going from your room to Pergami's, you entered the corner of the grand corridor, and then into a little passage, and then into Pergami's room? I did.
Do you recollect the dress in which Pergami waited at her royal highness's table at Naples? I do not.
You have said that you do not recollect any female of the name of Faustina in her royal highness's service at Genoa; do you recollect any female who resided in the house, arriving at Genoa about the time of the mother of Pergami and the little child Viclorine? My recollections are extremely indistinct upon the subject, and I do not at this moment recollect any such female, but it is very possible that there might have been.
Do you know the room in which her royal highness slept at Genoa? I do not.
Adjacent to the room in which you slept, was there not a room in which Hieronimus slept at Naples? There was.
Next to that room was there not a room in which William Austin slept? There was.
Was there a passage out of that great corridor before you went into the little passage that led you to Pergami's room, was there an entry to the dining-room? The only entry from the great corridor to the dining room 423 was through the small passage in which the door of my room was placed, as far as I recollect.
Then the door of the dining-room, by which you could get into that great corridor, was directly opposite to the door of your room, was it not? No; in passing from the dining-room into-the great corridor, the door of my bed-room was on the right hand.
Where did that passage, that went oat of the great corridor towards your room, go to afterwards? To the dining-room, it there terminated.
It did not go past the door of the dining-room, but ended there? It went into the dining-room.
§ Lord Grantham—A former witness has staled, that upon the same floor where the princess's room and yours and Pergami's rooms were, there was a place used as a water-closet; do you-recollect that place? I do not.
A Peer—Did you ever see her royal highness and Pergami together after Pergami was raised to the rank of chamberlain? I never did.
Earl of Lauderdale—Do you know whether there was a cabinet adjoining to Pergami's room? From my recollection, opposite to the door of Pergami's room, there was a door into a small room, which may be called a cabinet or not.
Lord Kingston—Do you, of your own knowledge, know any thing of the Queen for the last six years? I believe the time since I quitted her royal highness's service was five years exactly in June last.
Lord Rous—To whom did you dedicate the book of travels which you have published? There was no dedication.
Have you never said that you intended to have dedicated that book to the princess? I have not the slightest recollection that I ever said so.
Will you now say, on your oath, that you never said so? I can only say, to the best of my recollection, that I never have said so.
Can you say positively that you never said so I do not recollect having ever entertained an idea of such dedication.
When the countess of Oldi joined the princess's party, was she introduced to you? She was, as far as I recollect, by her royal highness.
What did her royal highness say upon that occasion? I cannot take upon myself to recollect; I believe nothing more than announcing her name, and that the countess of Oldi would accompany her royal highness to Venice; I recollect nothing more of the circumstance.
Did the princess speak Italian? She spoke it but imperfectly during my slay with her royal highness.
Did she state how she became acquainted with the countess Oldi? She did not.
Did you not ask who the countess Oldi 424 Was? I do not recollect that I did, it might be.
Earl of Rosebery—Do you recollect the princess coming into Pergami's bed-room at the time you were dressing his foot during his illness? Certainly she did not.
Do you recollect the princess coming into Pergami's bed-room during any part of that illness? To my knowledge never.
§ Lord Redesdale—Did you ever attend any others of the princess's suite at Naples during your stay there; besides Pergami? I did.
Who were they? I recollect an attendance on Hieronimus; I have attended her chamberlains during their stay at Naples.
Was there not a garden or a terrace attached to the house at Naples? There was a garden.
Did you ever see the princess and Pergami walking in that garden? Never. Did you ever see the princess and Pergami walking in the garden at Genoa? Never.
Did you ever see the princess riding on a donkey or a jack-ass there, with Pergami attending? Never; I know that she did ride in the garden, but I never saw her.
Earl of Liverpool—When the princess of Wales introduced the countess Oldi to you, did she introduce her or not as Pergami's sister? She did not.
What length of time was there from the time that she introduced the countess Oldi to you, till the time of your leaving Venice? I believe about eight days.
Are yon to be understood, that at the time you left her royal highness at Venice, you did not know the countess Oldi to be Pergami's sister? I believe I did not.
Lord Dynevor—In what language did the princess of Wales and madame Oldi converse? As far as I can recollect the circumstance, the princess spoke some words of Italian; whether the countess of Oldi spoke French or not I do not know.
You have stated, that during your stay at Genoa, you dined almost every day with the princess? Almost every day.
During that time, did Pergami ever sit down to dinner? Never.
Did you dine every day with the princess? I believe every day; I may perhaps be allowed to remark, that I was absent on two or three short excursions from Genoa, one of which detained me two days.
§ Earl of Harrowby—Did you ever hear the princess and countess Oldi converse together in French? I do not recollect it.
Did you ever hear the countess Oldi speak French at all? I do not recollect; I always conversed myself with her in Italian.
What kind of Italian did the countess Oldi speak? It appeared to me very much the Italian spoken in Lombardy.
Is that the Italian spoken by persons of fashion and education? I have observed it to be spoken by persons of fashion and education when conversing with each other; but 425 almost all such persons of fashion and education are capable of speaking the purer Italian.
Did you ever hear the countess Oldi speak the pure Italian? I find it very difficult to say, on recollection, whether it was so or not.
Was conversation in the dialect of Lom-bardy easily intelligible to a person who knew Italian from books only? I can only say, from recollection, that I did not find any difficulty in conversing with the countess Oldi; my recollection will not carry me beyond that.
Was that language easily intelligible to a person who had a very imperfect acquaintance with Italian? To that question I find it difficult to give an answer; I may remark that I had very few opportunities of conversing with the countess Oldi.
§ Lord Auckland—Did the language of countess Oldi differ more from pure Italian than the English language spoken by some Scotch persons of education and family differ from pure English? I find it impossible from the small recollection I have, to answer that question.
Lord Calthorpe—Do you recollect her royal highness ever, upon any occasion, having expressed herself dissatisfied with the situation of her house at Genoa? I do not remember her royal highness having made such expression; but I do recollect her royal highness at one time going to see another house in the neighbourhood of Genoa, which I understood, for the moment, she thought of taking. She did not take it.
Did you hear any reason assigned by her royal highness for wishing to change her residence I recollect that a reason was assigned, but whether by her royal highness I do not recollect; that she wished to have a situation where there was greater tranquillity; but I do not recollect that that reason came from her royal highness herself.
Was then the situation in which the house that she occupied at Genoa stood, peculiarly subject to interruption of any kind, that might have rendered it annoying? I am not aware that it was.
You were understood to state, that during the whole time in which you were in her royal highness's service, Pergami occupied the situation of a menial servant? He did.
Do you recollect at any time, or under any circumstances, her royal highness conducting herself towards Pergami in a manner that you could consider at all inconsistent with the relation in which a princess of Wales ought to stand towards a menial servant? I must remark, in answer to that question, that her royal highness's demeanor towards all her servants was extremely familiar. I should say at once, that I never observed any differ- 426 ence between her manners to Pergami and her manners to any other of her servants; I may be perhaps allowed to add to that, to her principal servants.
Then you are correctly understood as intimating that the degree of affability that her royal highness showed towards Pergami, was fully to be accounted for by that kindness and condescension which she generally showed to all her upper servants? I have never observed myself any difference in the degree of kindness or familiarity to him in preference to the other principal servants.
At what period did you join the service of her royal highness? When her royal highness left England.
In 1814? In August 1814.
How long did you remain in her service? Exactly ten months, from August 1814 to June 1815; my service and my salary from her royal highness did not cease in June 1815.
Did you consider Pergami as an upper servant in her royal highness's suite? As an upper servant.
Lord Chancellor—Did any of those principal servants, whom you mentioned in answer to the question last but two, dine at the Queen's table? None.
The following questions were put, at the request of Mr. Brougham.
Has your salary ceased since the time referred to? It has.
When? Fifteen months exactly from the time I entered into her royal highness's service.
Had you any pension after retiring from her royal highness's service? None whatever.
The Witness was directed to withdraw.
Then Charles Mills,esq. was called in, and having been sworn, was examined by Mr. Denman, as follows:
You generally reside at Rome? I do.
Did you reside there in the summer of 1817? I did.
Have you had the honour of seeing the princess of Wales there? I called upon her royal highness the day after her arrival.
Do you know how long she remained at Rome? I remained there myself but twelve days, therefore I cannot tell how long she remained at that period.
You left it before her royal highness? I did.
Had you the honour of her royal highness's acquaintance before that period? I had.
During the twelve days you have spoken of, were you repeatedly at her royal highness's house or hotel? I dined at the Gran d'Europa most days while her royal highness remained there.
With her royal highness? Yes, with her royal highness.
427 Can you inform the House whether at that time she was visited by persons of high rank? She was.
Will you mention some of their names? The persons that I saw at her royal high-ness's table, were but few, the baroness An-cajanni, who was appointed by the government to attend her royal highness.
Was any other lady of rank appointed by the government to attend upon her royal highness? The duchess Zagarolla.
Was she attended by a guard of honour also? She was, and had all other marks of distinction prepared for her, such as a box to see the ceremony of the Corpus Domini, the same as other royal personages who were then resident at Rome.
You have mentioned the two ladies appointed to attend upon her royal highness, as having dined with her; do you recollect whether other persons of rank of either sex dined with her also? I remember lord Kil-worth to have dined with her: the abbé Taylor was her constant guest.
Did any of their eminences dine there? I never saw them.
At other times besides dinner did persons of rank pay their respects to her royal highness, and attend her parties? Her parties had not commenced while she remained at the Gran d'Europa, but persons of rank came to pay their evening visits.
Was Pergami at that time her royal high-ness's chamberlain? He was.
Did he in that character dine at her royal highness's table? He did.
Have you often seen her royal highness and her chamberlain Pergami in company together? Frequently.
Did you ever see the smallest impropriety of conduct between those two individuals? Never.
Does that answer apply to the period of her royal highness being at Rome while you were there, and to other times also at which you may have seen her? Perfectly.
Did you pay your respects to her royal highness at Pesaro in the year 1819? On my return from Venice I called at her royal highness's villa at Pesaro.
How long did you remain there? I remained there two days; her royal highness was out airing when I called, but on her return she sent her carriage with one of her equerries and William Austin to desire that I would come to her house that evening?
And you went? I did.
How long did you remain on that visit? I arrived at her house about seven o'clock or eight o'clock perhaps; I remained there the evening, supped, and returned to the inn.
Did you pay your respects to her royal highness on the following day? Her royal highness sent her carriage and her equerry to show me whatever was worth seeing in the town of Pesaro.
Did you afterwards wait upon her royal 428 highness at her villa? I returned there to dinner.
And dined with her? And dined with her.
Did you spend the evening in company with her royal highness? After having walked with her royal highness about the grounds, I remained about an hour, and then proceeded on my journey, as I wished to go as far as the fair of Sinigaglia, it being the last day of the fair.
Had you the honour of paying your respects to her majesty after she became the Queen of England? I was at Rome when her majesty arrived there.
When was that? In 1820.
State the month, and if possible the day of the month? I hardly know the month, it might be February: her majesty had received an account of the king's death.
Had she assumed the title and dignity of Queen of England? She had.
Had she two ladies of honour then appointed to attend her? She had not.
Was any guard of honour in attendance at her hotel? There was none.
Nevertheless, did persons of rank, both of Rome and England, do themselves the honour to pay their respects to her majesty? Several: Have the goodness to name them? The countess—I speak of those who wrote their names in her majesty's book.
Did you see them do so? I saw the book.
What persons of rank did you see attending at her majesty's hotel, or paying their respects there? I saw none; I only heard of it, and saw it in the book.
Do you know whether it was understood that the funeral of his late majesty had then taken place? I think it had.
Was Pergami chamberlain to her majesty in the year 1819, and in the year 1820 also? He was.
Was there any difference in the general appearance of her majesty's household between those three periods? None.
Did you ever see any thing in the conduct of those two parties towards each other in the slightest degree derogatory to the honour of the English empire, or likely to wound the moral feelings of this country? Never.
Independently of the conduct of her royal highness and of her majesty towards Pergami, did you in other respects ever perceive that her majesty conducted herself, either in public or in private, in any way to which a just exception could be taken?
The Attorney Generalobjected to this question, as being not only a leading question, but one entirely travelling out of the point of inquiry.
Mr. Denman,with much animation, contended for the propriety of the question he had put. Did not the bill, he asked, both in letter and in spirit, arraign her majesty's conduct in public and in private? did it not 429 describe it as being derogatory to the dignity of the Crown, and disgraceful to the moral feelings of the people of this country? Were not these the terms used to define her majesty's conduct in the very preamble of the bill? Here is then a man who has seen her majesty's conduct in Italy at three different periods; who had had frequent opportunities of witnessing it; and who positively and distinctly, speaking from his own actual knowledge, negatives the assertion in the bill. Was he then, while combating the bill, to be refused the benefit of so material and so proper a witness?
The Attorney Generalsaid, he did not mean to restrict his learned friend from going into any inquiry which he deemed material—he only objected to his proceeding to question the witness in so leading and so general a manner.
Mr. Broughamdenied that the question just put was a leading one. Her majesty's conduct was generally impugned by the bill, and he wanted to show that it was unjustly impugned. This witness had competent means of forming an opinion.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he certainly saw no objection to the question being put; but he could not help suggesting to the learned counsel who put it, whether, if evidence on the one side of general conduct, without touching on the special charge, were admitted, it would not be open to the other side also to adduce evidence as to general conduct?
The Counsel were informed, that the question did not appear to the House to be a leading question.
The question was proposed.
I never did.
At all the times at which you have seen her royal highness and Pergami together, did he treat her with the respect that was due to her exalted rank? I never saw him behave otherwise than with the utmost respect.
There was no degrading familiarity? None whatever.
Cross-examined by Mr. Attorney General
Did Pergami dine at the table every time you dined with her royal highness at Rome He did.
Where did he sit usually? He had no particular place that I can recollect; I have seen him at various-parts of the table.
You were understood to say, that besides seeing Pergami at table with her royal highness, you have seen her royal highness and Pergami at other places in Rome? I saw their attending the Corpus Domini together; I saw Pergami in attendance upon her royal highness when they were at the ceremony of the Corpus Domini.
In what manner was he in attendance at that ceremony as chamberlain.
Where was her royal highness? In a box prepared for her by the government.
430 Where was Pergami? Behind her royal highness.
Standing or sitting? When I saw him, he was standing.
Were there any other of her suite with her at that time? Several.
How many times did you dine with her royal highness at Rome? Upon the first occasion I dined with her three or four times certainly.
Three or four times? Three or four times.
As many as three or four times? Quite as many.
You state, that besides the persons whose names you have enumerated, other persons of distinction called upon her royal highness at that time at Rome, in the year 1817; can you enumerate the names of any of those other persons? The ladies that were in attendance upon her were generally there, and many others of the Roman nobility, certainly and the cardinals; I met the cardinal Gonsalvi going up the stairs as I came down one day.
If there were many other persons, probably you can have no difficulty in enumerating some of their names? I usually dined with her royal highness, and after dinner I quitted her; the persons usually came in the evening. Were you there in the evening? Once or twice; her royal highness was lodged at the inn at this time; she had no established house at Rome.
When you say, that other persons of distinction visited her royal highness in the evening, are you speaking that from what you have heard, or from your own personal nowledge? From my own personal knowledge, the evening that I passed there.
Then the evening or evenings you were there, can you enumerate the names of any of those persons of distinction, besides those you have already mentioned? The evening I was there, I do not remember other names than those I have mentioned.
You have stated, that in the year 1819 you visited her royal highness at Pesaro, that when you called she was not at home, but that one of her equerries and William Austin afterwards called upon you; who was that equerry? The chevalier Vassali.
Did Pergami sup at Pesaro with her royal highness and yourself? He did.
Did he dine with you the following day? He did.
What other persons dined at Pesaro on that occasion? There were no persons but those of her royal highness's establishment.
Can you mention the names of the persons of her royal highness's establishment who dined with you at Pesaro? Vassali, Pergarmi, the countess Oldi, William Austin; the names of two other persons who were at table I was unacquainted with.
Was Louis Pergami one of those other persons? I cannot say that he was, for I am not sure that I am acquainted with his person.
431 Of course, whether he was one of those two whom you dined with, you cannot say one way or the other? I cannot.
Are those occasions that you hare mentioned the opportunities you had of seeing her royal highness, at Rome, and at Pesaro? They were.
And the only occasions? The only occasions.
§ Re-examined by Mr. Denman
§ Had you the honour of being acquainted with her royal highness before she left England? I had.
§ Examined by the Lords
§ Earl Grey—You are understood to have said you usually reside at Rome? I have said so.
When did you come last from Rome? I left Rome in the month of April last.
Did you then, leave Rome in consequence of receiving any intimation from hence that there was to be, or likely to be, a proceeding against the Queen? Not at all; I came on my private affairs.
Earl of Liverpool—In the year 1817, when you were in the habit of visiting her royal highness at Rome, did you see any English lady in her society? At the period of the year that her royal highness came to Rome, there were but few English. I do not remember to have seen any English lady.
Earl of Mansfield—Do you know whether any application was made for a passport, to the government of Rome, by her majesty the Queen of England? I know that application was made to the British consul for a passport.
Lord Falmouth—When you dined or supped in company with the countess Oldi, were you introduced to her? I was introduced to her the first time I saw her.
Did you make any observation upon the manners of the countess Oldi? Her manners were unobtrusive and natural, I should say.
Did you consider that they were the manners or an Italian lady? I did not consider them otherwise at all.
You considered that the Italian she spoke was good, was pure Italian? She spoke with the accent of Lombardy, as all persons from that country do, that I had ever conversed With.
You did not consider that the accent of Lombardy, was indicative of any vulgarity? I did not.
Lord Ellenborough—Was the language of the countess Oldi grammatically correct? I am not able to answer that question; I do not consider myself sufficiently versed in the Italian language to answer that question certainly,
Are you able to say whether the language 432 spoken by the countess Oldi was generally correct; did you ever observe any decided errors? I never did.
Is there not a difference in the dialect of Lombardy, as well as in the accent of Lombardy, from other Italian? I am not able correctly to answer that question; I have not lived sufficiently in the Milanese to answer that question.
On what occasion were you first introduced to the countess Oldi? In 1817, when her royal highness arrived at Rome.
§ Earl Grey—How long have you been in England? I arrived in May.
Since your arrival in England, and previous to the charge being brought in parliament against the Queen, was any application made to you for such information as you might have respecting her conduct when you had seen her in Italy? Never.
The Witness was directed to withdraw.
Then Joseph Teuilléwas called in, and having been sworn, was examined as follows by Mr. Williams, through the interpretation of Mr. Pinario.
Were you formerly colonel upon the staff of the viceroy of Italy? Yes.
And afterwards upon the staff of France? Yes.
Are you a chevalier of the orders of the Iron Crown and the Legion of Honour? Yes.
Had you a brother who was a general of division? Yes.
Do you know Pergami? Yes.
Where did you first know him? I knew him filling the functions of quarter-master (mareschaldelogis) in the first Italian regiment of Hussars.
In what year was that? Towards the end of the year 1800, and the beginning of 1801; it was the eighth or ninth year of the French republic.
Was that brother, of whom you spoke just now, the general that commanded Pergami at that time? My brother, the general of brigade, commanded a brigade of cavalry, composed of two regiments, the first regiment of Hussars, and a regiment of Chasseurs.
Were you aide-de-camp to your brother? I was aide-de-camp to my brother, the general Teuillé.
What was the conduct of Pergami at that time?
Mr. Parke objected to the question; on the ground that it did not go to affect the merits of the case.
The Counsel were informed, that the question might be put.
The question was proposed, and the witness said, The conduct of an inferior officer, non-commissioned officer, who has never done any thing to reproach himself with; in short, the conduct of a good soldier.
433 Was general Galimberti acquainted with Pergami at that time? Yes, he was.
Did they come from the same part of the country? They are of the same country.
Did you ever see Pergami at either of the parties, either dinner, or evening parties of the general? No.
Did you continue acquainted with Pergami at that time, or was there some interval before you saw him again? A great deal of time intervened.
Did you ever see Pergami at the evening parties of the general? No, I did not see him; but I know that he went to the house of monsieur Gallimberti.
As there was some interval, where did you see Pergami next; in what country, and at what time? On the frontiers of Spain.
In what year or years? It was either in the year 1808 or 1809; it was at the time when marshal St. Cyr commanded the division of the French army which proceeded to Spain, but I cannot exactly say the time, but it was about that time.
In whose service was he at that time? He belonged to the household of general Pino, who commanded a division of the Italian army.
Do you know in what manner he was treated by general Pino? With a great deal of confidence, because he was the person who had general Pino's whole confidence.
Did you visit general Pino yourself? I visited general Pino when the business of the service required it.
Did you see Pergami on those occasions? I have seen him sometimes, not always.
Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether he occasionally dined with general Pino at the general's parties? I cannot affirm that.
In what estimation was he held at that time by general Pino and the officers; how was he received and treated by them? With the greatest confidence; as a man who enjoyed the whole confidence of a person in the situation of general Pino.
In what esteem was he held by the officers? He was very well liked, and esteemed as an honest man (comme un honnête homme)
§ Cross-examined by Mr. Parke
§ Did you know Pergami when he was in a prison at Lodi? I never heard any thing of it.
§ You say that he was in the household of general Pino, was he not a servant in general Pino's family? He was as confidential courier (particulier) of general Pino, and entrusted with all his affairs, with all the affairs of his house.