Lord St. John, after adverting to the Convention between Great Britain and the United Netherlands, which had the other day been laid on the table, stated, that there appeared in that document a stipulation, with respect to which it was desirable that their lordships and the country should have some explanation. He alluded to that part of the Convention by which we agreed, in conjunction with the King of the United Netherlands, to take upon ourselves a part of the capital and interest of a loan contracted by Russia with certain Dutch merchants. A very general impression prevailed in the country, that part of this loan was contracted by Russia for the carrying on of that war which ended in the cession of Oczakow to that Power; a measure which this country, out of its anxiety to preserve the balance of Europe, had opposed. Another part of that loan was said to have been contracted for the purpose of carrying on those operations which terminated in the subversion of the constitution of Poland. Could the noble earl opposite give the House 718 any explanation on this point? He should be sorry, indeed, if this country were to be called upon to take upon itself the payment of debts contracted for any such purposes as those which he had mentioned; and, therefore, he was most anxious to hear from the noble earl some explanation on the subject, which would at least relieve the country from so severe a mortification. If the noble earl would have the goodness to state to the House the dates of the periods at which the loans were contracted, the House and the country would be enabled to form some judgment as to the objects for which the money was raised.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that he was disposed to give the noble lord and the House all the explanation on the subject which he could give; but he really did not know what were the dates of the periods at which these loans were contracted, nor with what views the debt had been originally incurred, nor did he conceive that these matters had any thing whatever to do with the merits of the question in the shape in which it at present came before their lordships. He did not mean, at this moment, to enter into any detailed discussion of that question: but the state of the case was exactly this:—The great exertions which Russia had lately made in the common cause, and the distressed state of the finances of that empire, were both well known to all Europe. An application had, under these circumstances, been made to Great Britain, to take upon itself the payment of a part of a certain debt which Russia had contracted; and from a consideration of the vast exertions which Russia had made in the cause of Europe, and the distressed state of her finances, it had been thought that the proposition was entitled to some favourable attention. On this account the ministers of the Government had thought themselves justified in taking upon themselves to recommend to the British Parliament to enable the Prince Regent to become bound for the payment of a part of the Russian debt. This might be wise policy, or it might not. He should not now enter into that question, though he was perfectly prepared to argue the paint when the proper time came: but the object was merely to relieve Russia from a part of this pressure, for the reasons which he had stated, without reference to the cause for which the debt had been originally incurred, or the period when it was con- 719 tracted. These were considerations which, in the view taken of the case by the British Government, had nothing whatever to do with the present question: but considering the prodigious exertions which had been made by Russia in the late campaign for the great cause in which the Allies were engaged, he did maintain, and would be ready to argue at length when the proper occasion arose, that this circumstance, combined with the actual pressure on the Russian finances, did afford a strong ground for receiving the proposition with the most favourable attention.
§ Earl Greysaid, that he was very far, indeed, from being satisfied with the explanation which the noble earl had given on a subject which, under the present circumstances or the country, must be regarded as one of the greatest importance. He did not mean at this period of the session, and with the sort of attendance which he should be likely to procure, to bring forward any formal motion on the subject; but he could not suffer this opportunity to pass, the last which he should probably have for the present, without making some observations upon this lavish expenditure of the public money, and the careless indifference which appeared in this as well as in other instances, about heaping the most enormous burthens on the oppressed and deluded people of this country. His noble friend had stated the general impression which prevailed that this debt, for the payment of part of which this country was to become bound, had been contracted for the purpose of carrying on the operations which ended in the cession of Oczakow to Russia, and he had very properly asked, whether it was possible that this nation was at last to be called upon to pay the debt incurred by that loan, which had enabled Russia to carry those measures into execution which Great Britain had opposed, on the ground of their tendency to subvert the balance of Europe. This, in his opinion, was a most material question, and one which well deserved their lordships most serious attention. But the noble earl had said, that this consideration had nothing to do with the question; and defended the stipulation on the ground of the great exertions made by Russia, and the pressure upon the finances of that country. The exertions of Russia, however, were made in a cause common to all; in a cause in which Russia was no less interested than the rest of the confederates. 720 In the course of this long war, (for it might be considered as one continued war from 1793 down to this moment,) had the exertions of this country been inferior to those of Russia, or any other Power of Europe? This nation had made its proportion of exertion, and had suffered its full share of the burthen; and why, in a cause common to all, should it be called upon to take upon itself an additional burthen which did not properly belong to it? Look at the expenditure of the present year: it was absolutely frightful. If any credit was due to the rumours that prevailed out of doors, the loan for the present year would amount to no less a sum than 36 millions sterling. Besides this, there had been issued 18 millions of Exchequer-bills, and to all this was to be added a vote of credit of 6 millions, making in all 60 millions sterling. Let it be recollected, that this enormous sum was to be raised at a time when taxes unknown to our ancestors had been resorted to in order to raise a large proportion of the sums necessary for the expenditure of the year, and that, too, for the very purpose of keeping down the capital of the national debt; but at a time when twenty millions of war taxes were collected, a sum three times that amount was raised in the manner he had stated, making an addition to the capital of the national debt of about one hundred millions. It was absolutely impossible they could go on in this manner without speedy and irretrievable ruin. At the commencement of the revolutionary war, if he was not mistaken, the whole capital of the national debt was about 240 millions; and now, after the unparalleled burthens to which the country had been exposed in this war which had lasted ever since 1793—for during the whole period we never had really enjoyed the blessings of peace—an amount of capital was in a single year to be added to the debt, nearly equal to one half of the whole of it at the commencement of the revolutionary war? Yet under these circumstances the country was to be called upon to take upon itself additional burthens, which no consideration of justice or sound policy required that it should bear. Never were burthens imposed with less reason upon an oppressed and deluded people; and the result of such a lavish and inconsiderate expenditure must at last, he repeated, be irretrievable ruin. Besides this payment on account of Russia, there was another sum of two millions, and possibly of five 721 millions to be paid to Holland for augmenting and improving the defences of the Low Countries; and this, too, deserved the most serious attention of their lordships. This expenditure he considered as entirety useless. If the arrangements made at Vienna had been brought under consideration, he would have contended, that the incorporation of the Low Countries with Holland was a most impolitic measure. He should have preferred infinitely to leave her colonies with Holland, and give up the Netherlands to some third power capable of defending them. But as for those sums employed in the repair of the fortresses on the frontiers, he considered them as entirely thrown away. As a measure of defence, or for any other good purpose, he considered it as perfectly nugatory. As to the advances to Holland in lieu of her colonies, be protested that if those colonies had been offered to him gratuitously he would have declined accepting them; for, instead of being an advantage to this country, he was convinced they would be only another burthen added to those with which the nation was already so heavily loaded. He did not, as he had before stated, mean to go at length into the subject; but as this opportunity had presented itself, it was impossible for him to allow it to pass without thus stating to their lordships the impression made on his mind by the papers now laid on their lordships' table, and the state in which the country was placed under these circumstances of enormous and lavish expenditure.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, it was not his intention to go at large into this subject now; but after what had just fallen from the noble earl who spoke last, it was impossible for him not to say a few words. He had before said, and he still maintained, that the prodigious exertions made by Russia in the common cause, and the distressed state of her finances, entitled the proposition to take upon us a part of this debt to our favourable consideration. True, the exertions of Russia were made in a common cause; but let it be recollected that the exertions of Russia had gone much beyond what was necessary for her own security. After the enemy had been driven from her own territory, and at a time when she might have made peace with much less danger than any other power in Europe, she still continued, in spite of the deranged state of her finances, to make exertions chiefly in 722 favour of the rest of Europe, such as had never been surpassed by any nation in the world. True, this country, too, had made its exertions, and had endured its burthens. No one could be more sensible than he was how much this was the case. The situation which he held necessarily gave him the means of being peculiarly able to appreciate the burthens and privations to which the nation was exposed; but it ought never to be forgotten, that during; the whole of this eventful struggle this favoured country had never been the scene of foreign invasion. It had at least escaped that dreadful devastation—those tremendous calamities—with which the progress of the invader must have been attended; and when we looked at the exertions and sacrifices of Russia as compared with our own, let us consider what would have been, the situation of this country if a great part of it had been occupied by the enemy; if our territory had been ravaged, and London had been laid in ashes! He was well aware of the efforts which this country had made—of the burthens which it had endured—of the privations which it had suffered during the period which the noble earl had mentioned: but it was a most erroneous view of the subject to look at it in that light merely. This country had, indeed, made exertions, and suffered much and severe privations; but let the effect of these exertions and privations be also taken into account. To what did we owe our present state of comparative security and prosperity—to what did we owe the preservation even of our existence? When we looked, therefore, at our burthens, let it not be forgotten that to our patient endurance of those burthens, to our persevering exertions, we owed the comparative security and prosperity, probably the salvation of our country. Considering, then, the vast exertions of Russia beyond, her own territory, the great advantage which we derived from those exertions, and the slate of the Russian finances, he would confidently submit to their lordships and the country, that the engagement of ministers was fully justified by the soundest views of policy and expediency. He admitted that it was not a claim of strict and rigid justice, but an appeal to the liberality of this country; but he trusted their lordships and the nation at large would concur with the Government in thinking, that it was an appeal which, under the circumstances, merited the most favourable attention and consideration. With respect 723 to the sums to be advanced to Holland, their lordships would observe that only two millions were to be paid at present.—The noble earl had said, that the money expended on the frontier fortresses was thrown away: but in that respect his opinion was widely different from that of the most eminent military characters; and on a former occasion it had been urged with considerable force, that this was by far the cheapest mode in which the great interests which this country had in the protection of the Netherlands could be secured. The expense of one campaign to repair the mischief that might result from the want of these fortresses would be greater than that which would be required to put the whole of the frontier in a complete state of defence. This, therefore, was an expense which was warranted by every consideration of sound policy, and even of an enlightened economy. With regard to the colonies, they were in many respects of great importance to this country, but particularly so in this view—that they were in a great measure cultivated by British capital. Without going further into the subject at present, he trusted their lordships would be of opinion that the ministers of Government had not departed from the line of their duty, but had, upon a sound view of the whole circumstances of the case, acted in the manner best calculated to promote the permanent interests of the country.
§ Earl Greyconceived the security of which the noble earl boasted, to be good for nothing, and to be just so much money thrown away. It would have been better to have left the Sovereign of Holland his colonies, and to have given the Netherlands to some third Power, capable of defending them.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that the opinion of the noble earl on this subject was at variance with the opinion of the first military authorities.